Gospatric Dunbar-27 Maldred Family Line, Leo van de Pas, Shared Image

+5 votes

Gospatric Dunbar-27 is a topic outlined earlier this week. One of my 2 initial objectives was to build consensus on Gospatric's Parentage and while including info about the concerns in the profile, I feel we are at a point to remove the banner about dispute. My strongest new input on the parentage was the McGuian work of 2015. the expanded summary of his conclusion is on the Maldred Dunkeld-90 profile.

I wanted to share this graphic of Maldred of Scotland with the community. It is the family line as studied by Leo van de Pas. I have a lot of respect for the prodigeous work he did. He was truly an open collaborator as we desire in this community. The one community member that offered comments earlier this week had the suggestion to review SGM forum discussions. Well as it happens I also had been focused on that dialog and Leo laid out his work in the October 2012 emails.

his sources aren't necessarily the most schollarly, but they are clear and they are representative of the better secondary sources, that preceeded the McGuigan focused analysis. I feel the managers of Dunkeld-90 and Dunbar-27 can move now to a consensus conclusion on Parentage.

Marty Ormond

Click here for the image details page or here for the full-sized version (727 x 508).

WikiTree profile: Maldred of Scotland
asked in The Tree House by Marty Ormond G2G6 Mach 5 (53.5k points)

1 Answer

+3 votes
Best answer

The Henry Project by Stewart Baldwin in the article about Crinan outlines what information is available about Maldred from primary or near primary sources, which seems to be only works by Simeon of Durham.

Maldred is clearly identified as the son of Crinan, (who is once given the title of thane) but whether this is the same Crinan as the father of Duncan, King of Scotland is never stated. Maldred's mother is never identified in any of these sources.

I think we could connect Maldred as the son of Crinan (the father of Duncan) but mark it as uncertain.  Not sure about Bethoc - should we add her as Maldred's mother also marked as uncertain? Or disconnect her as Maldred's mother?



answered by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (316k points)
selected by Marty Ormond

thanks John,

Joe Cochoit also provided a link to the Henry project on his reply earlier.

My goal was one step at a time, I wanted things clear about Gospatric and Maldred, before Crinan I wanted clarity about the conclusions of Maldred, The Gospatric writ and associated Allerdale and Strathclyde history were part of the McGuigan study and the writ was a very strong bit of evidence.

Cawley does say pretty explicitly that Maldred, son of CRINAN "the Thane" Mormaer of Atholl [Scotland] & his wife Bethoc of Scotland Lady of Atholl (-killed in battle [1045]).  He is named son of Crinan by Roger of Hoveden[1383]Lord of Allerdale.  Regent of Strathclyde 1034/35.

We have had discussions prieviously about the desire for ongoing Crinan comments. Leo's input is one of those added pieces that I value in reaching consensus

John one other quick thing. part of my short term mission is to get merges and random profiles squared away.

You are manager for a profile Mac_Maidred-1.

That needs to be merged into Dunbar-27. can we agree on that and execute quickly,and get the same 2 parents. that would be good news. I'm sure there will be some other forgotten ones that come along soon also

In regards to Cawley, the source he cites is the Chronicle of Roger of Hoveden, volume 1, p. 59, which is here.

It's in latin and my understanding of latin isn't that great, but it seems clear that Roger of Hoveden, is using Simeon of Durham as his source, and he is only saying that Gospatric is the son of  Maldred who is the son of Crinan (Cospatricus filius Maldredi filii Crinani, and Maldredo filio Crinani Tenuit).  Like Simeon of Durham there is no indication that Crinan is the same as Crinan, father of Duncan, and more importantly states nothing about Maldred' mother.  

Cawley's statement that Bethoc of Scotland is Maldred's mother isn't supported by any citations at all.

I'll have a look at the merges.

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