Richard Holt father of Christian Berkeley needs help.

Question

I just added a Richard Holt (Holt-5589] as the first husband to Joan Collingbourne Darell as he appears in her ipm as her first husband and father of her daughter Elizabeth (who was 46 in 1495) and grandfather of her granddaughter Lora (who was 30 or more that year) (daughter of Christian). But Richard Holt, father of Christian wife of Sir Edward Berkeley already existed, [Holt-2613] but maybe did not appear as an option because his birth date was estimated as 1389 and I guessed at 1420.

There's no mention of Joan on his page as he has a wife named Christian, and no verifiable sources though he is linked to a wife and parents. It seems that Richard may indeed have had a wife named Christian see notes at [http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsearch&id=I13536] but perhaps she was not the mother of his daughter. Richardson has Joan as the mother, but gives her surname as Barton. [http://tinyurl.com/j9uon7v] and does not appear to connect Joan to her second husband, Constantine Darell who appears in the pedigrees to marry Joan, daughter of Robert Collingbourne. I can't see where the Barton might have come from. It's probably in Richardson's notes, but they are hard to parse.

For now, should the two Richards be merged but with Joan showing as the mother of Christian? Her ipm specifies that Lora "wife of Thomas, Earl of Ormond, aged 30 or more" is one of Joan's heirs. And can the dates be narrowed down at all?

Comments

Evidently the Colerithes are the Coldreys and the dates are pure guesswork, LDS style, 25 years apart and wives 4 years younger than husbands, like all good Mormons and their ancestors.

So I guess 2613's wife needs to be merged into his mother, good luck with that one, and Joan can go in the gap.

Beyond that no idea.  Could Darell have married 2 Joans?

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Or perhaps Richard Holt married 2 Joans.  The IPM doesn't say his widow was the mother of either of his daughters.  For all we know, she was a gold-digger who married an ailing man just to collect the dowry, at the expense of his daughters.

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But would his daughters be her heirs as she also had children by her second husband? The ipm does call them her daughters, not her husband's daughters, though sometimes these things are a bit vague.

I'm hesitant to assume that Richard was the son of the earlier Richard until I learn more about them (i.e., was there such a couple?)

Also, I wonder if there was another Joan at all.

Answer 1

I think we are talking about 2 X Richard Holt, father and son.

There is a mention here of Christine, wife of Richard Holte and granddaughter of Roger de Colreth, aged 50 or more on 2 May 1444.

And page 503 in the Victoria county history of Hampshire, vol 2, specifies that Christine Colrithe wife of Richard Holt, left a son Richard Holt, who died in 1458, leaving a daughter Christine (though it gets the name of Christine's daughter's husband wrong)

Back on page 486 of the same volume, it states that Richard Holt died in 1458 leaving 2 daughters and co-heirs, Christine aged 14 and Elizabeth, aged 10. (Again it calls John Blount, William Blount).

I can't find an inquisition post mortem for either Richard Holt, which might help in working out for sure if they are father and son.

To confuse matters more, though there is a mention of a Joan Chamburleyn, aged 18 and more in April 1445, who is the wife of Richard Holte junior.  See here http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/26-339/

There is also "Richard Holt was enfeoffed by his mother Christine in 1447 (in manor of Pury) in Vol 4, page 28, of the same County History of Hampshire.

Answer 2

In regards to Joan Collingbourne versus Joan Chamburleyn (see my other answer) - what is the source for Joan being the daughter of Robert Collingbourne?

There isn't any source currently on the profile page.

If the report of the Inquisition post mortem for Richard Holt (junior) in 1458 is correct then the elder daughter Christian/Christine must have been born about 1444 and this overlaps with the mention of Joan Chamburleyn as Richard's wife in 1445.  Unless Joan Chamberluyn is married to a completely different Richard Holt?

Comments

Chamberlains

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/chamberlain-william-1445

Collingbournes

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2013-02/1360540723

 

 

 

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I got the impression that Joan died a widow.  Perhaps there are two Constantine Darrells here.

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Thanks very much for the links, John, most helpful. The John who died 1458 leaving two daughters co-heirs would certainly be a match. Then Joan married Darell. 

There are references on Joan's profile page, but they don't seem to appear at the bottom, you have to look at it in edit. Don't know why that happens, perhaps I coded it wrong? Anyway, it is in the poorly copied pedigree here [http://tinyurl.com/jcrkvw2]. Another mention here, but I only have it in snippet view:

The Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Magazinehttps://books.google.ca/books?id=28sxAQAAIAAJ1924 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

In the pavement of the chancel is a brass to Constantine Darrell and Joan his wife ; the date of the death of the former is ... of William Darrell, of Little- cote) lived at Collingbourne Kingston ; his wife, Joan, was daughter of Robert Collingbourne.

But, RJ, I don't think "late the wife of Constantine Darell" in her ipm implies her being a widow. And the death of her first husband is specifically mentioned, but not the death of her second.

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Re: Collingbourne vs. Chamberlain, I rather lean to the latter given the 1445 reference and the fact that Maurice de Berkeley was one of William Chamberlain's feofees.

Should I attach both possible Joans to  Richard jr. with the note that they are quite possibly the same person and that one source (probably the WANH one) may be incorrect as to her father?

I expect more data will turn up in the future which will help pin this down.

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Missing footnotes - could be there's no <references /> tag.  The early gedcom imports didn't create one.

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Thanks, RJ, where should it go?

Re Collingbourne, I see a snippet in HOP that leans the Collingbourne way. 

History of Parliament...: 1439-1509 - Page 259

 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=xceHAAAAMAAJ

Josiah Clement Wedgwood, ‎Anne Holt - 1936 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

1495),6 widow of Richard Holt of Colrithe, Hants, junr., gent., and da. and h. of Robert Collingbourne, M.P. Bedwin 143 1, 1 by whom ... Apptd. troner and peseur of Lynn, Norfolk, during pleasure, 9 May 1459 ;8 pardoned, with his wife, as " of Collingbourne Aston, Wilts., esq. ... 11 Apr. 1508 ;TI buried in Collingbourne church— M.I. DAUBENY, Sir Giles (Lord Daubeny i486) K.G. (1451-1508) ; of Barington ...

Interestingly, I think Robert was the son of Richard Collingbourne of Great Bedwyn. His History of Parliament bio connects him to Thomas Calston (Constantine Darell's maternal grandfather).

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Of interest, Joan was said to have been the sister of the ill-fated William Collingbourne who composed the doggerel about the cat, rat, dog and hog which so offended Richard III that William was drawn and quartered. See:

Memorials of the Wars of the Roses: A Biographical Guide - Page 199

https://books.google.ca/books?id=UbkqAQAAMAAJ

W. E. Hampton - 1979 - ‎Snippet view

Joan, dau. and h. of Robert Collingbourne, widow of Richard Holt of Colrithe, Hants., and niece of William Collingbourne, the author of the imperishable doggerel attacking Richard III, Radcliffe, Catesby, and Lovell, who was executed in 1484, ..

Answer 3

I have this on my family tree.  Christan Holt was born to Richard Holt and Joan Barton in 1433, then married Edward Berkeley in 1452 (Gloucestershire).  They had 4: Lady Lora (b 1454), Thomas Maurice of Beverston (1462), and .Sir Maurice Berkeley (1464).  Edward also married Alice Cooke or Cox abt 1449 and the result was Edward (Thomas) Berkeley in 1452.  Hope it helps.  Bye.

Comments

Thanks for this, Jeffrey. I haven't come across these dates before, but they seem reasonable. Did you happen to note the sources?