South African Roots Project members - Stem hier vir die projek riglyne !

+19 votes
1.1k views

Hi SA Roots Members

Hi everyone We now have 53 member 

A warm welcome to you all and we are so very happy that you have joined this exiting project :-D 

We have added vote options on the issues we need to know what you all would like to be our guidelines, voting is anonymous and you only vote for the option you prefer (so no downvotes because this will make all votes worthless of course).  The vote options all have colored lines above them, to make it easier to find them between all conversation. 

Ons Het nou stem opsies bygevoeg sodat ons saam die projek riglyne kan bepaal, hierdie stemme is anoniem en jy stemt alleen vir die opsie die jou die mees aanspreekt

Die opsies almal het gekleurde lyne bo hulle, dit maak dit makliker om hulle te vind tussen al die gesprekke.

The templates we use in the beginning was changed due to a policy change. If you have noticed it and added the correct template great, if not will all members of the SA Roots project please....

1:  add the "new badge" to your personal profile by adding {{South African Roots}} 

This will enable you to go directly to the SA Roots page where you will find all the wonderful resources and other help pages and if you click on the yellow part it will bring you directly to the G2G discussion page for our project. Neat hey  :-))  

Now you are one click away from asking for help or any other question you would like to ask :-)

2: Add the different templates to the profiles you manage:

I am adding them here and they are self explanatory  We call them the needs templates : They give an indication what is still needed on the profile . Just copy and past them onto your very own scratch pad under my Wikitree and you will always be able to find them.  

{{South African Roots|Needs=Birth Record}}

{{South African Roots|Needs=LNAB}}

{{South African Roots|Needs=PPP}}

Happy hunting and watch this page for updates and more information and many thanks for all help, voting  and input !

WikiTree profile: Space:SARoots-Beleid
in Requests for Project Volunteers by Ronel Olivier G2G6 Pilot (123k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
Added info about the vote options now and changed title a bit so it's more clear everyone can vote now ;)

Hi Bea, the options are now a bit clearer but still exclude a) the options to protect / not to protect the parent connections [which is a huge issue in the 19th century extensive family structure and inaccurate secondary sources]; b) Also I'd tend to vote for PPP {Project Profile only as active manager} when all the necessary research can be done still by those who have the most vested interest / knowlegde on those family members (move us to the trusted list) - also the bio's of importance. For example: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dearlove-9 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Kruger-322 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Second_Boer_War (which should be combined with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Anglo_Boer_War-Anglo_Boere_Oorlog_1899-1902) and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hobhouse-4 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Liebenberg-949 [etc.]

Hi Philip, for the 'younger' profiles, this of course also might be a reason for PPP, so I added it to both PPP options as well now to make more clear PPP not only protects (locks) the LNAB, but also protects (locks) the parents. Dirk Laurie has added a link at the free space page to the G2G where PPP, Project Profile and the Project Profile Google Group (Watchlist) is explained as well now, to make sure our members understand what it actually does, how it all works.

Thanks Bea, Dirk. Though a long read, it is actually pleasant to read now in Afrikaans the differences.
Now rests the difference between the 2 options just above the last 2 options - about the married full fist middle name ... Option 2 says that the guidelines are not clear yet, perhaps this is the reason I do not yet understand the difference between the two ...

Thank you Philip, yes it's wonderful to be able to read things in our own language eeh :) 
 

It now is a whole lot of info already so we are already planning to start a Suid Afrikaans Portaal (or perhaps there's a better title for it ?), there as you know we will have the Project pages, which are wider and will make it all more easy to read . 

Perhaps there are members interested and would like to help translate WikiTree subjects in Afrikaans ? Just let us know we of course could use some help, you can add your name and a post to the Afrikaans Help free space page where some of our great members now already are working very hard on translating or explaining a whole lot of WikiTree stuf in Afrikaans. Baie baie dankie for all hard workers it's really awesome !

Vele hande maak lig werk en die is dadelik 'n leuke manier om kennis te maak met mekaar en gezellig saam te werk ! 

Thanks Bea, but I see that Dirk has a humor in his Afrikaans and that makes the reading also very pleasant. As far as my own Afrikaans goes - it has been too Dutchified in the past 33 years. I can translate but in my case the Caep has become Dutch again ... :-) So I won't be offering my help on this.
You're right Philip it's also important things are pleasant to read, my 'Afrikaans' is google translate Afrikaans and a bit of guessing, so that's probably even worse :P
It''s:

* Either we all are fine to have not a specific guideline, so everyone is allowed to do as he or she prefers concerning the use of the first-middle name field + married name, and the guideline will be,  whenever members disagree they will have to start a G2G and let other project members vote between two options

* Or ..do we want more specific guidelines concerning the first-middle name field + married name as well.
Hi Bea,

Thanks  for the great effort you are putting into this project.

For too many years transcriptions were plagued by old "technology" for example there was the age of typewriters which limited which characters could be transcribed. Then came the early computer programs, some could not even accept a space in a surname, some had the surname in all caps. Examples of these early tech is still floating around even today from especially old gedcoms. Today we have the technology to do the right thing.

In all good conscience I cannot condone that we decide between the use of technologies. I doubt even if a large enough percentage of our members know the difference between UTF-8, ASCII and Extended ASCII. We have the opportunity to get it right.

I proposed a transcription page in our help pages.(Dirk said he already started) Here I would like to see every character that could possibly be transcribed represented in two ways, one for the LNAB and one for text. There might be slight differences, but the transcription rule for each with reference to authority will be given, That way even new members will know why a character is transcribed in a certain way.

Regarding the use of middle name. Even today, the birth registration forms of South Africa makes no reference to middle names. Since these are your primary source being created, I suggest that the middle name field not be used.
Thank you very much Louis

This page will be very useful to all members

I also agree with you on the middle name fields. No document I have ever seen myself had the middle name specified

Baie dankie Louis

So 'n blad sal van groot waarde wees vir ons lede.

Ek stem saam, geen dokument wat ek self al gesien het, maak onderskeid tussen voorname en middel name nie.

No thanks needed Louis, we all try our best and work hard to make sure all members will be happy with this project and what's decided here eeh.  Dirk indeed started and is working very hard on one here: Hoe om transkripsies te maak so perhaps he can add a UTF character list there, or perhaps there's some sort of table we could add there with the characters ? You're very good with the tables and things, so perhaps you and Dirk could join forces and work on this together ?

If you both feel we do need to have guideline(s) for the name fields (no middle name ?) just vote for option 2 where it says you feel we do need guidelines...

Or perhaps we could add a third option if you think that would be helpfull ?

'RE middle names and birth certificates. Please consider that cultural understanding of names will differ. My husband's family has a British background but many were born in South Africa (or Basutoland don't know if they will come under your umbrella. ).His mother's family complete with son bearing what I would consider a middle name arrived in 1820.
  The mention of birth certs led me to look.My husband has three birth certificates. His South African one has his and his parents names on three separate lines.His British (army overseas) cert records the names in a similar fashion. His Kenyan cert has the three names in a straight line. I accept that none explicitly call the middle name a middle name . Nor does my British one. Nevertheless, the intention that the second and for some members of the family, third or fourth given names were middle names is surely there; just as it was when we named our own children.
Some of the middle names used were in fact originally the surnames of the mother or in one period a respected minister but then the name was passed down to subsequent generations .My South African born brother in law has for his very rarely used middle name, the maiden name of his gg grandmother.

Helen, thanks for your comment. The Middle name is purely an American concept and is often confused with second or third names. Despite their relatively long existence in North America, the phrase "middle name" was not recorded until 1835, in the periodical Harvardiana.

Louis, that is an excellent reply. You just moved up one notch in my personal estimation.

Ek het gaan kyk na die impak wat die weglaat van die middel naam en/of die toevoeg van die middel naam op die daaglikse lewe binne WikiTree op die gebruiker sal he:

Hier is die ouers van Jan Harm Venter

 Vader:

 "Proper First Name:  Slegs Philippus 

 Preferred Name: Philip

Middle Name:  Arnoldus 

::Moeder, 

"Proper First Name: Volle name  

As ek Jan Harm Venter (kind) se doop byvoeg gebruik ek die ouers se name soos aangetoon deur WikiTree  aan die linkerkant van die redigeer blad .

Ek het dus nie nodig om uit en in te gaan by redigeer blad nie. 

Dit spaar tyd en voorkom dat ek per ongeluk die blad on-gestoor toemaak en alles moet oordoen.  

 

 

Hier is die verskil soos in die edit gedeelte

===Geboorte===
::Datum: 9 Oct 1873
::Naam: Jan Harm Venter
::Vader: [[Venter-1492|Philip Venter]]
::Moeder: [[Olivier-1434|Heila Aletta Elizabeth Olivier]]

 

Hier is die eindproduk

Geboorte : Datum: 9 Oct 1873

Naam: Jan Harm Venter

Vader: Philip Venter

Moeder: Heila Aletta Elizabeth Olivier

Hierdie is net ter inligting omdat jou stem bepaal moet word deur jou werkwyse, en wat julle dink die beste vir almal sal werk :-D 

 

 

RE middle names. (Sorry have no computer access , just a phone,so unable to translate previous reply  apologies if relevant )
I disagree that the usage of middle names is a purely American phenomena or even that current usage is solely influenced by them.
My next door neighbours in France are callecalled Marie Therese and Jean Paul. Clearly their  second name is part of their primary name and thus not a middle name.It was the same for Henrietta Maria, the wife of Charles 1. A hundred years later George 111 is known as George, not George Frederick William.
 Later still the ordinary people adopted middle names. This certainly occurred before this type of name was labelled in your reference.
The gg grandmother referred to above was born in 1825 and baptised Jane Appleby ( Appleby after her mother's maiden name) Baunton. She was not called Jane Appleby, just Jane. Her husband was William Hatcher Ford but again just referred to.as William.
 Pragmatically many of the profiles of their descendants in South Africa already have profiles with the name fields used in accordance with wiki tree and what I consider is also British  convention.
I think I understand what you mean Helen and yes if people were from other Countries etc. I think members will not have a problem to use the naming convention these people used themselves. But what I understand of it is, this is more about the Dutch people or the South Africans born in South Africa, where, if I get it right reading the comments, (and please correct me if I'm wrong ;), the naming convention seems to be pretty much the same or similar to the Dutch, so no middle name field)  is used or known in registrations etc.

But I don't know much about middle names and don't really understand them I think, I read you say sometimes mothers or gg grandmother maiden name or a last name of a Minister were middle names.

Sometimes I also see profiles where only one letter (like Peter '''J''' Bradley or something)  is added to the middle name field and was what the person used, so for me it's really abracadabra sometimes what the middle name is about or for, if someone has more first names I assumed you had to add the names that are in the middle, so between the first and last name, to the middle name field, but now with the mother maiden name and the Ministers last name, and sometimes just one letter, I think I'm lost ;)
Actually Bea, middle names are often almost redundant in usage. My middle name is Mary, I don't use it except as an M in my signature. Middle names became fashionable in the early 19th century. (earlier in the wealthier classes) It makes genealogy a bit easier when there were two given names. The fashion for using the mother's maiden name or other family name also dates from about the same time .These names sometimes stuck through the generations. My brother in law thought his middle name came from his grand father who had the same middle name .He didn't know it originally came from his gg grandmother until I told him. The use of the ministers name is I think more unusual but was  prevalent in the 1820 settler, Weslyan community .There are lots of children with the middle name of Shrewsbury or Dugmore; early ministers of the the church in Grahamstown.
To return to the point, I feel very strongly that naming conventions should reflect the culture of the person concerned. Almost everything I have read on this thread has reflected only one culture.
I also feel that there will be other problems to consider when making decisions about the use of name fields as the project  begins to encompass more of South Africa's diverse community.
eg. I would like to add a relative by marriage. I've already added a brother of his  but have balked at creating this profile .This is because this man  had several Zulu wives and  many offspring.(in addition to his 'English' wives.These wives had neither surnames, nor birth registrations (Indeed sourcing will be difficult since information  is scarce and as far as I know limited to a couple of academic secondary sources largely  based on oral tradition ) What policy should be adopted for the name fields in these profiles?

Helen, In cases where a person has no Current Last Name, use No Last Name.

Hi Helen

Thank you for taking part in the discussion, and your input are very relevant.

I agree that this tread does look as it reflects only one culture, and I am sorry that it was not made more clear. I will explain:

The SA Roots are the main project:

We are talking about general guidelines, and are asking members to view there opinions in general.  

At the moment we have incorporated the following Sub categories:

Cape of Good Hope

Voortrekkers

Anglo Boer war

1820 Settlers

Philip, Susan, Dirk and Gordon is the coordinators of the Cape of Good Hope

Esme, is the coordinators of the Anglo Boer War

The Voortrekkers and 1820 Setters has no one looking after them at the moment.

Each category will make use of guidelines that suit that period best, as in the case of Cape of Good Hope, they have developed a set of guidelines that suit there needs, and in some instances it is totally different or slightly different from what will be decided by members regarding the SA Roots project in general, taking into account that as and when new activity in different categories begin, the guidelines may differ.

For instance when a Zulu member join the project, and would like to add his family tree. The guidelines might be totally out of line, the cultural difference will ask for a new way of working altogether.

This is fine, we realise that all the sub categories fall in a different historic and cultural period and are more than happy that each will and / or can be treated differently.  

If the need arise more Categories will be added to make sure all diversities in our rich history are accommodated.

The discussion here were to give each and every member a chance to voice his or her views, but also to have a general guideline for all the profiles that fall in between categories.   

Your input is therefore relevante and much appreciated

Regard

Ronel

Bea, that link to the UTF-8 character list that you made is indeed the best one I know.

That website lists them in codepoint order. If you scroll down that page, after 1024 characters you will find a link at the bottom labelled "More..." which takes you to the second page. There are about of those 100 pages, each listing 1024 characters, making over 100,000 UTF-8 characters in total.

The quest for the most accurate UTF-8 transcription possible brings to mind another quest currently being mooted.

 

Thanks for explaining Helen, and I think I'm happy with our Dutch naming system/convention, because for the older profiles it sometimes might be quite a puzzle I think to figure what the middle name was exactly ? Naming children after Ministers is something I have seen in the Netherlands also :)
Thank you Ronel :)

Dirk, Dream Big eeh, it's a one way trip, so no return, I really prefer to stick around here ;) I think we all love a bit of adventure, but leave everyone and everything behind, knowing this is the last trip you're going to make...must be a really hard thing to decide ..

Did you see that all profiles of people who were born 150 years ago or who died 100 years ago must now be Open?

Yes I noticed and I think they all will be opened automatically soon, if they aren't already ?
Hi Bea,

I sure hope so, but that was not the impression I got. Chris said that if a profile is opened for editing then the rules will come into effect.
That's well put, Louis. It covers not only new profiles but also privacy changes to existing profiles.

One should read the full post, but I am satisfied that there will be no great hurry on this and that profile managers will be consulted. No heavy-handed tearing of the veil.

I had one hidden-biography profile of someone in that age range, and have already opened the profile myself after removing some subjective comments.

Opsomming van Nuwe riglyne: Vir openbare dispuut of aanhangsels hier geplaas (vervaldatum 9 Mei 2017)

1: Die “LNAB” (last name at birth) presies soos geskryf in die geboorte of doop register maar sonder die “UTF-8” kodes. (e.g. siviele geboorte registers, doop registers, familie bybels deur ouers bygehou en ingevul )( birth register, baptismal register, family bible kept by the parents)

2: Die gebruik van middel name:  Geen middelname word gebruik nie aangesien alle bronne vir Suid Afrikaanse profiele die volle name gebruik 

3: PPP + projek profiel toevoeging : net profiele van 200 jaar en ouer en jonger mense net as dit nodig is (byvoorbeeld as die LNAB nie in ooreenstemming met huidige van gebruik is nie of as daar 'n hoë risiko is dat die profiele gedupliseer kan word, ook as die konneksie met die ouers beskerm moet word) Die aktiewe profiel bestuurder bly ook bestuurder, maar nie meer as een + die projek profiel as medebestuurder, die ander bestuurder(s) bly mede-bestuurders maar gaan na de vertroue lys. (Die bydrae wat gemaak is kan hier as riglyn gebruik word, indien daar bestuurders is wat voel hulle word te na gekom)

Wees asseblief vrymoedig en neem deel, kritiseer en brei uit. Dit is nog oop vir bespreking of meld net dat julle met my opsomming saamstem. Dankie vir jul hulp

Ronel

 

Looks good to me, so no problem here, thanks for the great work Ronel !

Hi Ronel and Bea,

Transcriptions: What are happening here is not correct. You cannot have a vote on not using certain technologies for transcriptions. Transcriptions should be based on sound transcription guidelines like the transcription page Dirk completed. He mainly gave the from Dutch guidelines but where other languages are involved, a transcription might have to use UTF-8 characters.

Middle Name: Please consider what is genealogically correct. The vote should not be for convenience or because someone decides that the a person has a first name -which might consist of two parts- and a last name and everything in between is a middle name. 

The middle name is an American concept and does not appear in in our Genealogy. There are no single source document with "middle name" printed on it. New sources are created every day without the middle name. If someone is from America where they have middle names it can be added as such, but then it has to be pointed out in the Biography. 
I know we have thousands of profiles where the middle name was entered and it won't be changed overnight. But the future use should be discouraged and in time it will be corrected.

The added advantage of not using the middle name will mean that our surname pages will then be indexed alphabetically. Those pages do not use the middle name to index the pages. If you do not know what I am referring to, look at for example the surname page for Botha. Now look how the names starting with Anna are indexed. It is random for the top part and from Anna Catharina in about the middle of the Anna's the index starts making sense. That is the difference between using the "middle name" and not using it. The bottom part sorts correct because "middle name" was not used.

I sincerely hope we can lay this to rest.

 

 

Hi Louis

Thank you for taking the time to inform us of your viewpoint.

I totally agree with you about the middle name:

And ... if it is acceptable to most  - we will stick to no middle names, This is the very last opportunity for all to view the concept - vote -  and for us to have an outcome, then we can move forward.   

Regarding the UTF-8 codes.

Once again I agree with you, 

Just want to make it clear and make sure we are on the same page: 

The vote was not for transcriptions in the Bios, but for the entery of the LNAB in the data field. Using the exact spelling as can be seen on the records-  just without the codes.  

The transcripts should show the correct transcript, if possible. Not all will do this because not everybody know how to, or some are to difficult to find - but that is what we would like. :-D 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Ronel,

I am referring to the transcript of the LNAB. Transcriptions in the Biography should be exactly or as close as possible as they appear in the original text. A separate transcript of the LNAB transcript should be used in the Biography to indicate the difference if there is one.
Ons moet asb net nie nog LNABs soos Düpree of Pretoriús laat deurglip nie, en dié wat daar reeds is, moet Dupree en Pretorius word. Grové, Maré, Kotzé ens is 'n ander saak. Dit dui uitspreek aan en mense met daardie van spel dit self so.

Hi Dirk,

Ek is nog steeds 'n voorstaander van 'n verbatim transkripsie in beginsel. Die "current last name" veld is daar om 'n transkripsie korreksie te doen. Dit laat toe dat enige navorser enige plek vanaf dieselfde dokument dieselfde profiel sal bereik. 

Ongelukig werk dit nie vir getroude vrouens nie en die tegnologie het ons in die steek gelaat want ek het die Dűpree as 'n program fout op die 18de Maart gerapporteer en tot op datum kon hulle dit nie regmaak nie. Dit vertel my die probleem is heelwat groter as wat ons dink. Die ding kan nie in die lug bly hang nie. Dit is hoekom ek vra dat ons voortgaan met transkripsie riglyne wat nie op tegnologie gebasseer is nie.

Sou daar dan 'n transkripsie kom waar ons moet UTF-8 gebruik, moet ons dit maar aanvaar soos dit is.

Hi,

We added the vote options a while ago and members have voted, so I think the ''Opsomming van Nuwe riglyne: Vir openbare dispuut of aanhangsels hier geplaas''  Ronel added, was only based on the number of votes for each subject ?

I'm ok with the changes you propose Louis, so if we all can agree and make a final decision for the riglyne now, that would be wonderful. We still have some other things to work on as well eeh ;)
No response to Middle name treat. Riglyne changed to no Middle name as there were no objections made by members.

Thanks R

Ek stem saam.

Dit gaan ons werk baie vergemaklik.

Transkripsie in die bio' s presies soos op die rekord en die LNAB soos op die transkripsie sonder die UTF-8 mits die LNAB vandag nog so gebruik word.

Geen middel name

 

Ek het nie duidelikheid nie - vir wat betref die SAR projek (nie die COGH nie) ... Susan begryp een ding, Ronel sê 'n ander, Louis weer iets anders.

Volgens wat ek begryp Susan, is dat die WikiTree algemene beleid bly geld (ons kan dit nie sommer verander nie) = LNAB presies soos op die dooprekord (of die offisiële EGGSA transkripsiie daarvan en nie FS nie, maar bijvoorbeeld eGGSA [Corney Keller byv..]). Die ander variasies in die current name field of aka velde.

Die transkripsies kom anyway in die bio's. Maar dit is nie 'n rede om bijvoorbeeld 'n van soos "Naudé" sonder die aksent op de e te PPP as dit so geskryf is op die dooprekord nie ... Met die middle names is ek ok any which way; dis nie vir my so 'n saak nie.

Dit is die punt, ja. Aksente wat deel van die van is, moet behoue bly. Aksente wat 'n skryfkonvensie is, nie. Dis eintlik net met die letter u wat daar met omsigtigheid te werk gegaan moet word. Is dit 'n oorspronklike umlaut (Müller, Schütte, ens) wat nou wel dikwels deesdae weggelaat word maar nogtans in daardie tyd gebruiklik was? Is dit bloot 'n merkie om die letter in handskrif van 'n n te onderskei? Die res van die doopregister gee dikwels 'n aanduiding van hoe die betrokker scriba te werk gaan.

Hi, 

If I get this right you want the LNAB protected exactly as it was written in the Baptism record, excluded the little 'wiggles' that just were added to distinguish the letters or showing if it was a u or the n,  but including the more important and just correct things like the umlaut like the one here ü or the accent lines above é which were showing how the name was pronounced ? I think that won't be a problem, so I think this can be added to or adjusted a bit in the rigtlyne voorstel Ronel ? 

Which is also a bit similar to what Susan proposes I think ? 
Transkripsie in die bio' s presies soos op die rekord en die LNAB soos op die transkripsie sonder die UTF-8 mits die LNAB vandag nog so gebruik word.

Philip ek begryp tenvolle wat albei van hulle se, en ek verstaan ook duidelik dat dit nie vir COGH geld nie, net vir SAR preode na 1806 :)

Dis reeds in die beleid ooreengekom dat LNAB's na 1806 in die transkripsie gespel sal word soos op die doop rekord (in die bio) maar in die LNAB die spelling is soos op die transkripsie sonder die UTF-8 codes mits die gebruik van die LNAB vandag nog gespel word met 'n  UTF-8 codes, bv: Naudé

:)

Dankie vir die uitleg almal (ook Bea). Maar wat ek nie begryp nie is dat Ronel die maatreël oor middle names bedoel, en jy oor die transkripsies van die lnab in die bio's praat ...!?!
Is die Middel name nie die res van jou geboorte name nie? AS jy drie name het dan kom die laaste twee by middle name, wat belangrik is.  Of is ek alweer besig om van die wa af te val?? Help my maar reg want ek wil nie ons "boeke" of "bome" deurmekaar maak nie1

Groetnis

Anne-Marie van der Walt
The Middle name is purely an American concept and is
often confused with second or third names. Despite 
their relatively long existence in North America, 
the phrase "middle name" was not recorded until 
1835, in the periodical Harvardiana. 
Susan, jy's reg. Maar die hele diskussie oor middle names het 'n tydjie terug ontstaan (elders op WikiTree) en soos Louis aangee, dit het nie voor 1835 bestaan nie. Tweede en derde name wél.

Dit was waar die vraag van Ronel ook oorgegaan het. Nie oor transkripsies van de LNAB nie. Maar daar het dus nou ook duidelikheid oor gekom. Ek refereer na Bea en Dirk Laurie se opmerkinge.

11 Answers

+9 votes
 
Best answer
I would like to propose formally for SA Roots (CoGH can do as it pleases) that:

1. The LNAB be taken from a document written as close as possible to the time of birth (e.g. civilian birth register, baptismal register, family bible kept by the parents).

2. Failing that, all documents available from the person's lifetime and directly attributable to that individual (e.g. will, signature) should be taken into account and an informed decision made.

3. Failing that, all documents not attributable to the person (newspaper reports, name on an envelope addressed to the person, death notice, gravestone) should be taken into account and an informed decision made.

4. A distinction be made between a transcribed name (which appears in the biography) and the LNAB to be entered into the database.

5. A conscious effort be made to represent the LNAB in the ASCII character set, since any deviation makes the URL for that person's profile illegible.

6. Exceptions to the previous rule may be made at the profile manager's discretion, not enforced by the project management, and argued on G2G if necessary.

7. Profiles to be protected only when there is a clear indication that changes are being made to and fro by people undoing each other's edits.
by Dirk Laurie G2G6 Mach 3 (39.4k points)
selected by Bea Wijma

Thanks for the proposal Dirk and it's of course still only a proposal, I chose it for best answer now so it sticks out, and makes the G2G more easy to follow and of course because it's great to have a proposal here. 

I will add the proposal or personal preferences Dirk le Roux made here as well, so you all can let us know which you like best, if you agree/disagree or if perhaps you have other ideas ? And of course a huge thank you for all of you who responded here already, it's really great to have some help and input from our members for these decisions !

Dirk le Roux added his Personal votes as follows:

2.1. In the transcription, definitely. In the name fields, I will adhere to whatever is decided. In favour of "yes" here is continuity with the CoGH project's policy.

2.2. In the transcription, no. In the name fields, I will adhere to whatever is decided. In favour of "yes" here is WikiTree engine's search difficulties with strange characters.

2.3. Yes, for current last name, and if no primary records exist for LNAB, then I would use the name as found in later records for that as well.

2.4. Yes

3.1. Yes, go Dutch if the person has a Dutch or Afrikaans background or have been assimilated into those cultures.

3.2. Yes, when accounting cultural preferences, if possible, indicates middle names in the middle names field is appropriate.

4.1. Yes, use the last name that the person herself used at the end.

4.2. If a husband's last name was adopted, by all means! Where the woman kept using her own last name, an argument in favour of using the last husband's last name is that it will improve the likelihood of finding existing profile/s for the same individual (as both the LNAB field and last husband's last name in the Current Last Name fields are searchable in WikiTree). My personal argument against that idea is that often a lady was married to more than one husband, and often the last husband was an 'old-age' relationship, which produced no or very few offspring and in a genealogical sense then in such a case, the likelihood of someone searching for the woman under an earlier husband (who produced most offspring)'s last name is higher.

And Philips proposal:

a) I understood the policy of WikiTree has always been to take the LNAB as written on the baptism / birth record (including diacritics / UTF-8) and not standardize the spellings of the LNAB. The standard spellings (for that period in that particular person's lifetime) should be either in the current name box or aka'd.

b) The Dutch issue with not knowing a middle name is a semantic issue - the US know the other names after the very first name as "middle name[s]" and has created a field for that. The Dutch does not understand that and adds all the multiple second third [etc.] names after the first name in the same field. Now there was a G2G on this some time ago; the results as far as how this influences searches on names in WikiTree was inconclusive.

Now in my humble opinion in the case of a) we still follow the general WikiTree policy b) we also follow the US-understanding of the use of the middle name fields.

This has the benefit that after 31 Dec 1806 when the break between the {{Dutch_Cape_Colony}} project and the {{South African Roots}} happens (for convenience' sake), there will not be different rules to abide by. Anyhow thousands of profiles by now has the middle names already in the field the US has created for that name.

@ Philip 

By Yvette Hoitink Quick Tip - Dutch people - No middle names  we do understand, we just really really don't have or use them ;) 

I have developed (but not retrospectively applied to older profiles) the following practice:

1. Middle name used for the surname of the ancestor after whom the person is named, if any. Else none. E.g. my Laurie grandfather's first name is entered as "Dirk Pieter" and his middle name as "van Zijl".

2. If this surname is passed on to another generation, it joins the first names. E.g. if I had got that surname, my first name would have been "Dirk Pieter van Zijl".

3. If over several generations the family comes to use that surname to create a double-barreled surname, it goes there instead, at that stage, e.g. "Janse van Rensburg" or "te Water Naudé".

I like my method, but would not inflict it on anyone, and even less would I suffer project leaders editing my ancestors' profiles in order to inflict their method on me, so I suggest that we do not prescribe any policy on this one.

I think this is about the use of the name fields Dirk ? (so if names are added to the first name field or to use a middle name ?

For the Dutch Roots project we use (for all Dutch (Roots) profiles, the no middle name option, simply because we  never had, and still don't have or use one. And we have our name fields and how to use them explained a little in the Glossary Netherlands and in the Nederlands Portaal we have it explained a bit more Naamvelden Nederland

Now for me personally it's fine if people use the name fields for their own direct family members however they prefer.

But it's harder if we have not decided anything about this (so if there's no guideline at all) for the older profiles, ancestors we often will find we have in common with more members and who we need to share, it doesn't have to, if we were all easygoing and not making a fuss about these things, but unfortunately.. as we all know, it can become quite a problem if one person wants it done this and the other in a different way sometimes, so that's why we need to have things clear . Perhaps you would like to start a vote option (just like the LNAB one) for this as well ? Voting seems to be the easiest way, it's anonymous so everyone can add their opinion and vote :)

My LNAB proposal included a component that at a certain point the profile manager, who often is a family member and at least has a certain interest in the matter, should be allowed some discretion.

I feel more so about the middle name. There are pragmatic issues, for example if you don't put them in the FNAB, you have a harder time telling apart all the Johannes Smits on your watchlist, and there are dogmatic issues, i.e.  how much of the culture of modern South Africans is still very Dutch, how much is rather more English, and to what extent are we spiritual descendants of Hendrik Biebouw formerly Bibault, a young man of mixed descent credited with first claiming "Ik ben een Afrikaander."

Being prescriptive about this is good and well for CoGH — die Kaap was nog Hollands. For post-1806 profiles, it means taking a stance. That stance will please some and annoy others. That's why I say laissez faire, just let it happen. If we get to the situation where those hypothetical quarrelling descendants start arguing, then project management should step in. Not before.

Same thing with surnames of married women. In CoGH it simply is anachronistic to write a woman's first name with her husband's surname. In present-day South Africa, a woman who marries has to take special steps if she wishes to retain her maiden name. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, the matter was in a state of flux. Again I say, for SA Roots, laissez faire.

I don't think we should vote on issues that may never concern us. Moenie die bobbejaan agter die bult gaan haal nie.

Dirk if everyone agrees, and concerning the first - middle name fields or the married name, I have no problem with this, to have a guideline to prevent problems, we could of course also just decide, in case of a disagreement, members will have to start a G2G where they can ask other project members to vote for one of both options ? This way it always is a democratic decision.. 

Dirk, as almal hom hierin kan vind en voor wat betref die voor-middel naam velde en getroude naam, ek het geen probleem met hierdie. 

Om tog 'n richtlijn te hê, om probleme te voorkom, kan ons natuurlik ook besluiten af ​​afspreken dat by 'n meningsverschil lede sal 'n G2G moet begin, waar hulle ander lede kan vra om te stem vir een van beide opsies. Op hierdie manier is dit altyd 'n Democratisch besluit...

For the LNAB we now have two options, so all members now can vote. Of course if there is proof a LNAB was changed or different, for those cases we can always start a G2G and we can discuss things or also vote for it, if you and other members would like it better ?

Vir die LNAB ons hê nou twee opsies, sodat al die lede nou kan stem. Natuurlik as daar is 'n bewys 'n LNAB was verander of anders, vir daardie gevalle kan ons altyd 'n G2G begin en ons kan dinge bespreek of ook stem vir dit, as jy en ander lede dit beter vin ?

Hi,

First of all I would like to have any references to how the CoGH project do their PPP'ng or reference to anything else done by them to be referred to their pages and our Help pages should only reflect the guidelines for profiles with a birth after 1806. My reasons being that The Dutch Cape Colony existed before the SAR project and so as to prevent possible conflict or an assertion that we prescribe to them.

Regarding the transcription of the LNAB
I prefer the wording of WikiTree in this regard

"if there are any contemporary written documents, the spelling from those documents should be used, In particular, the spelling that appears in a birth record should be used for the Last Name at Birth unless there are other documents from at or near the time of birth that inform us about a more common or correct spelling."

Common sense should prevail that where a transcription is being made from an older alphabet - the new alphabet should be used. If you are sure the author of a document accidentally left out  a dot on an i or a j, you should transcribe it correct with a dot and make a note of it in the bio. That way other transcribers in ten or fifty years will know what you did and why you did it.

The preferred name and current last name fields should be used to correct "funny" spelling of names so that to the names they would have used at the time. This was brought into WikiTree to make these profiles searchable where the LNAB shows a "funny" transcription.

The honor code should be used as to resolve disputes.

Point 4 has no logical meaning. What type of distinction is being referred to? What about the current last name and Preferred name fields? Isn't that the names you would use to write a biography?

Point 5: I object to just the use of the ASCII character set. My experience with Dirk indicates that he is very exact when he suggests something. The ASCII character set has only 127 characters(or was that 129 - can't remember). The point being that none of these characters has any accents, colon's etc. Those characters were only included in the Extended ASCII character set to a limited extent. We have a diverse ethnicity in South Africa. What is going to happen to for instance the spelling of names of Bantu peoples?. Example the use of characters like  ḓ, ṱ, ḽ, ṋ, ṅ

A URL is a url. What does it matter if you can read it in plain language or not? 

Point 6. I do not approve of just the use of the ASCII character set as such disputes should be handled in accordance of the Honor code and a G2G discussion if needed. It is not the project or profile managers privilege.

Point 7 This wording places a limitation that only profiles being changed to and fro can be PPP'd. as such I object There are other profiles for example those older than 200 years, notables and profiles that can be PPP'd at the discretion of the leadership.

First name Field

I vote for all names in the first name field because I have yet to see a government birth registration form that uses the middle name feature. It as been a few years, maybe they changed it, but last time the forms only had surname and First name sections. No middle name sections. It appears that the official position is no middle name.

  

Thanks for the proposals and your view on all of this Louis, did you notice and vote for the LNAB option you prefer already ?

 (you can find both options at the bottom of this G2G)

And Louis, Dirk and everyone who is following this, we can add options for some of the other issues as well if you all would like ? Just let us know what you think is the best way to come to a decision. (guideline we use for our project.)

I am not replying to the most recent post, but to the one by Louis.

The first paragraph seems to be about the Help Afrikaans page. Since it is a Wiki page, those points have a greater chance of being edited into the page if posted there as public comments.

The intended logical meaning of Point 4 is that there should be one rule for a transcription and another for a database name. I.e. one should NOT copy from the transcription and paste it in the name field.

When you transcribe, you try to render the handwritten document as accurately as your skill can make it. Therefore transcriptions belong in the biography where any WIki genealogist can edit them, since nowadays, with UTF-8, much closer renderings than before are possible. For example, Rijnsbùrgh is a transcription that was closest when grave accents on selected vowels were available, but we now have breve accents on anything and can do Ry̆nsbŭrgh, which is much closer to the handwriting.

When you enter a database name (LNAB or FNAB) you want WikiTree to be able to find that profile when some reasonable approximation of the name is entered. For that purpose, Rijnsburgh is best, because "ij" is a well-known way of representing the Dutch long y in print, and the fact that the name definitely was not spelt Rensburg on that occasion is respected.

You are right about ASCII, I most definitely do mean that, but note my phrasing: A conscious effort be made to represent… I don't mean ASCII only MUST be used, I mean when it is deviated from, it is for a cogent reason, such as that the "common and correct spelling" of the name at the time required it.

Finally, PPP. It is a tool designed to resolve conflict, not a stamp of quality for a beautifully finished product. I would be among the first to argue that WIkiTree should have such a stamp and that project leaders should have the privilege of bestowing it (in fact, I am willing to start a general G2G on it). But read the requirements for PPP: it is a disciplinary measure first and foremost.

Project protection should be used only when profiles need protection — because they are commonly-shared, frequently-duplicated, subject to confusion, etc.

There must be some sort of controversy or duplication problem, or reasonable expectation that there will be. (My emphasis.)

 

+11 votes

Woohoo thank you Ronel and for all of you who would like to, you can of course ask questions or discuss things in your own language here, which, just like everything else and our wonderful project, is neat as well eeh ;) 

The South African Roots Project team has been working really hard and has done a great job, they also added some great helppages in English and of course in Afrikaans also, where a lot, if not all, is explained. 

But of course if there's something you still miss or would like to see added, changed or are wondering about something and so on, please ask and add it here, your help and input is important and really appreciated !

So check out the helppages and the South African Roots Project  to see if it's all clear, we also have some sub projects already that you might be interested in.  

Ons kan hier dus ook die Projek riglyne en werkswyse bespreken met sy Allen en vastleggen, sodat dit duidelik is vir almal en daar later geen misverstanden oor ontstaan

Thanks for joining and all help and input everyone, enjoy and have a wonderful weekend !

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
+5 votes

Hi everyone, 

Dirk started a few interesting G2G's, with some points that of course are great and what we were hoping to discuss here, so to make it more easy we can all add and find what we decide for the project in just one place I added it here +some extra points, hope it's ok Dirk? 

1. Ek wou iets op Help Afrikaans skryf oor ons riglyne ten opsigte van die geboortevan, want dis 'n area waar projekte die reg het om hulle eie reëls te maak, wat nie noodwendig presies soos WikiTree se algemene reëls is nie. Toe kom ek agter ons het nog nie so iets nie. Ons moet dit nog maak, en ons moet almal se opinies hieroor hê, al is net "Stem saam met Oom Daantjie".
Kyk 'n bietjie na Help Afrikaans en gee jou mening.

2. In a project where it is routine practice to PPP a profile if the spelling of the LNAB is nonstandard, should there not be a few commonsense guidelines about accents? Like, for example, "If the name is an Afrikaans/French/German/Swedish/Polish one, only use accents that occur in Afrikaans/ French/ German/ Swedish/Polish?" or "Take into account the way the name was commonly spelt in that community at the time of birth." 

Any ideas, preferences for what to use for LNAB you would like to add, we of course would like to hear from you, so just add it here . :) 

3. Multiple first names -middle names, many people have multiple first names, now the Dutch for example never used or knew a middle name (we still don't), so we will add all names or the first name including the patronymic if the person had a last name, to the first name field (which often in matches or when you save will give a warning there are multiple names in the first name field or something) we will just save anyway, because for Dutch people this is not a mistake but perfectly correct. 

How about the naming fields for South African people, would you prefer to use middle names or more similar to the Dutch ?

And of course if you have something you would like to discus related to the project, just add it here , we want to make sure you all feel happy about the project guidelines and way we work. 

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
wauw Ronel you have been quite busy eeh, well I'm glad members responded and voted if it's by mail or G2G, and for all members, you all are equally important and member of the project, so all votes count, we want to make absolutely sure the guidelines are very clear and you all (the majority) can agree and feel comfortable with what's decided for the South African Roots Project here and now :)

So thanks everyone for your input and votes !
Excelent work and interesting results, thanks Ronel!
All in a day's work Bea :-)))

Thanks for doing all the hard work here  !!!

Plesier Dirk

Nogals interessant ja voorwaar 

Pretty interesting yes indeed
Groot guns om te vra.

Is daar iemand wat goed tweetalig is, wat bereid is om die riglyne ook in Afrikaans uit te stip en hier te pos asseblief?

Ons belofte was dat dit 'n Afrikaanse forum sal wees :-B

Ek dink dit sal dus wonderlik wees as ons persone wat nie goed tweetalig is nie, en Afrikaans verkies, en ook graag aan die gesprek wil deelneem, ook kan akkommodeer...... ?

Ek het geen beswaar as ons die gesprek in beide Engels en Afrikaans (ten volle tweetalig) voer nie, maar ek voel oorheersend Engels is onregverdig teenoor die meerderheid.

Dankie by voorbaat

Ronel

Daar is veral twee punte ter sprake.

  1. Hoe kodeer ons die geboortevan?
  2. Met hoe 'n streng hand behoort projekleiers op te tree?

Daar is geen dispuut oor die punt dat die geboortevan so getrou as moontlik uit die dokument naaste aan die geboorte van die kind geneem moet word nie. Ek glo ook nie daar is 'n dispuut daaroor dat die transkripsie in die biografie alle middele binne die vermoë van die transkribeerder, insluitend die volle mag van UTF-8, behoort te gebruik nie.

Die meningsverskil lê in die interpretasie van "so getrou as moontlik" vir die van wat jy onder "Last Name at Birth" intik wanneer jy aan 'n profiel werk. Die twee uiterstes is:

* Gebruik net die letters van die alfabet en die leestekens wat op enige rekenaar se sleutelbord voorkom.
* Knip-en-plak daardie getranskribeerde naam net so.

Dis ongeveer Opsie 1 en Opsie 2 onderskeidelik, hieronder. In albei gevalle vermoed ek wat ons werklik gaan doen, 'n rapsie meer genuanseerd gaan wees as die uiterstes. (My voorstel was bv ongeveer die eerste, maar met diskresie toegestaan aan die profielbestuurder.)

Wat die ander punt betref, is die twee uiterstes:

* Projekleiers moet slegs ingryp as dit duidelik nodig is omdat 'n stryery ontstaan het waar twee mense mekaar se redigering ongedaan maak.

* Projekleiers moet oor 'n breë spektrum profiele voorkomend beskerm deur die projek die alleenbestuurder te maak.

Ons is nog nie gevra om op dieselfde manier hieroor te stem nie.

Duidend dankies Dirk
Mag ik wel zeggen, mensen van 45+ geschoold met Afrikaans als moedertaal hebben bv De Kleine Johannes of Koning van Katoren als voorgeschreven boek moeten lezen en zijn zelfs erover geëxamineerd, en die hebben dus in theorie geen groter vrees voor het lezen van het Nederlands dan voor het Engels.
In my opinie is die "middle name" probleem nie soveel 'n kulturele probleem as 'n tegniese probleem nie. Dit is doodeenvoudig vir databasis doeleindes.  Die persoon se eerste naam gaan in die "first name" veld en al die ander name in die "middle name" veld.

Ek dink nie 'n mens moet hierdie terme letterlik interpreteer nie.
Dis wat ek ook sê Leon, dankie!
+10 votes

Only vote for the option you prefer (LNAB -Last name at Birth)

Option 1. (e.g. civilian birth register, baptismal register, family bible kept by the parents)

Die “LNAB” (last name at birth) presies soos geskryf in die geboorte of doop register maar sonder die “UTF-8” kodes

UTF-8 kodes is die woorde met al die goetertjies op die letters,  byvoorbeeld:  û ô ê ŕ ś ï ŏ 

The last name exactly as it appears in the Baptism or Birth record but without the UTF-8 characters. 

2. Failing that, all documents available from the person's lifetime and directly attributable to that individual (e.g. will, signature) should be taken into account and an informed decision made.

3. Failing that, all documents not attributable to the person (newspaper reports, name on an envelope addressed to the person, death notice, gravestone) should be taken into account and an informed decision made.

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
now has 4 votes from Ronel's post and correspondence, but I think to stay fair we can only count the votes we receive in this G2G. So if you voted by  email, voting here is anonymous and we really need everyone to vote the options they prefer here now..many thanks in advance !
+5 votes

Only vote for the option you prefer (LNAB -Last name at Birth) 

Option 2. (e.g. civilian birth register, baptismal register, family bible kept by the parents)

Die “LNAB” (last name at birth) presies soos geskryf in die geboorte of doop register met die “UTF-8” kodes

The last name exactly as it appears in the Baptism or Birth record including the UTF-8 characters

2. Failing that, all documents available from the person's lifetime and directly attributable to that individual (e.g. will, signature) should be taken into account and an informed decision made.

3. Failing that, all documents not attributable to the person (newspaper reports, name on an envelope addressed to the person, death notice, gravestone) should be taken into account and an informed decision made.

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma

Has 1 vote from Ronel's post and correspondence but I think to stay fair we can only count the votes we receive in this G2G. So if you voted by  email, voting is anonymous and we really need everyone to vote the options they prefer here in this G2G now..many thanks in advance !

+4 votes
Hi everyone , we now will add vote options on the issues we need to know what you all would like to be our guidelines, voting is anonymous and you only vote for the option you prefer (so no downvotes because this will make all votes worthless of course).

We already have started this for the LNAB so if you all could vote what you prefer it would be great, and please check in here a few times this week, because we will add vote options for more subjects we need to have a guideline /rule for .

Thanks for all the help and input and votes, it's really appreciated !
by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
+5 votes

The ready acceptance in many replies that UTF-8 characters are OK in transcriptions prompted me to try my hand at actually doing it on the marriage register entry where the Janse van Rensburg family (from which I, too, descend) started. I eventually came up with:

:1708 Johannis Viljon van Cabo jongm, hwd
:de 14 Aug. Catharina Snijman van Cabo jonge d.
:ditto. Claas Janse van Renſbu͑rg, hwd Aaltie
:Schalk van de Caab.

It took me a long time to find out how to make that particular swish above the u, and it would be terribly tedious to have to do that sort of exercise every time a letter as common as u is encountered. That made me wonder what procedures are followed by people who produce great quantities of transcriptions from old Dutch manuscripts. The website Gekaapte Brieven explains it succinctly.

Vir dié wat bietjie huiwerig is met die lees van selfs moderne Nederlands, som ek op.

* Daar word 'n sogenaamde diplomatiese transkripsie gemaak, waarvolgens die oorspronklike so getrou moontlik gevolg word. Onder andere, as die oorspronklike op 'n nuwe reël begin, maak die transkripsie ook so.

* Daar word in ag geneem wat die skrywer bedoel het in gevalle waar dit onseker is watter letters daar staan, maar spelfoute en glipse word nie verbeter nie.

* Diakritiese tekens word oorgeneem as dit 'n spesifieke betekenis het (bv Franse name en woorde) maar nie as dit gebruik word om letters met verwarbare vorm te onderskei nie. Die voorbeeld van 'n strepie of iets dergeliks bo 'n u word spesifiek in daardie verband genoem.

* Wanneer dit onseker is of woorde los of vas geskryf is, word die moderne manier van doen gevolg.

* Afkortings wat algemeen in gebruik was, word uitgeskryf.

Ek dink dus tog, wanneer Bea daarby uitkom om ons te laat stem oor hoe transkripsies moet lyk, ek gaan stem dat ons nie 'n lat vir ons eie gat moet pluk nie. :-)

Ek het ook gaan kers opsteek by Corney Keller, wat 18de-eeuse doopregisters vir eGGSA transkribeer. Hy volg wesenlik dieselfde reëls as Gekaapte Brieven.

by Dirk Laurie G2G6 Mach 3 (39.4k points)

Dirk  

Bogenoemde werf gebruik nie enige kodes op hul transkripsies nie, omdat dit die soekfunksie opfoeter en tydrowend is. 

Kan ons dus vra dat die transkripsie gedoen word so na as korrek as menslik moontlik (soos gelees op die betrokke rekords), maar dat die kodes slegs aangewend word vir die dokument wat die Laaste Naam By Geboorte moet bepaal. 

Nou is die latjie baie korter en sal dalk minder seer slaan :-)) 

Bea in short that the codes only be applicable to the transcription (in Bios) of the document that would determined the LNAB 

Some codes are hard to find, and will cause extra work.

Ter Inligting: 

Aan almal wat nie weet nie - meeste kodes kan verkry word vanaf "Character Maps" wat deel is van Windows.  Ek het geen ondervinding van selfone of ander toestelle nie. Jammer kan nie daar help nie. 

 

Weet jy, Ronel, hoe wonderlik UTF-8 ook al is, dit sal altyd net 'n benadering tot die handskrif bly. 'n Beter benadering, weliswaar, as wat Windows 1252 was, wat op sy beurt weer nader kom as ASCII — maar dis nie die foto nie.

As ons nou verskriklik baie moeite insit om die transkripsie van 'n skyn van volmaaktheid te voorsien, en dit boonop juis net vir die dokument doen waarop die LNAB gebaseer is, gaan lui mense (jammer, ek projekteer maklik my eie ondeugde) dink hulle hoef nie na die foto te gaan kyk nie, Deugsame Dirk of Behulpsame Bea of Phantastiese Philip het dit mos al gedoen.

Destyds, toe ek my transkripsie van die Allert van Zijl-familiebybel wou oplaai, het Philip koue water gegooi en gesê ons het dit nie nodig nie, mense moet na die foto's self gaan kyk. Ek was vies, maar hy is natuurlik reg. Geen transkripsie is 'n substituut vir die foto nie.
Hi Dirk

Ek praat van die transkripsie in die Bios wat die lede vanaf die foto self maak om die LNAB te bepaal.

Die een wat so gedoen is dat die skakel deel is van die transkripsie en jou direk na die oorspronklik foto dmv die skakel neem as jy daarop klik.

Die transkripsie wat die kodes van die LNAB insluit in die Bios en wat van die LNAB in die Dataveld sal verskil  wat nie die kodes insluit nie so u dit die finale besluit wees.  

(Maak die bespreking en ooreenkoms van hoe die LNAB gesien moet  makliker )

As 'n persoon nie 'n probleem met die LNAB het nie sal dit nie nodig wees om na die foto te kyk nie, en mag hulle maar lui wees.

My skrywe gaan oor die "kode lat" wat ons gaan pluk en om die lat te beperk tot die LNAB, in plaas daarvan om alle dokumente wat van belang is vir die profiel, by die "kode lat" te betrek :-D

Onseker

Het ek en jy mekaar misverstaan?

Ronel, ek dink ek weet wat jy bedoel, en ek gaan nie my siening op iemand anders probeer afdwing nie. Maar ek gaan ook nie verder op daardie manier probeer transkripsies maak nie. Die werk is reeds swaar genoeg, ek moet nie ook nog moet sukkel met "Character Maps" nie. (Terloops, 'n uitdaging: vind op daardie skermpies. Dis nou 'n u met iets soos 'n linkerhakie op.)

Ek het gaan uitvind wat die mense doen wat groot hoeveelhede transkripsies vir eGGSA skryf, en 'n hele blad daaroor geskryf. Let wel, dis net 'n beskrywing van wat daardie mense doen, nie 'n voorskrif vir wat ons moet doen nie.

Dirk

Jy het jouself uitstekend van jou taak gekwyt.

Goeie navorsing en baie ure se werk

 Hartlik bedank Dirk
+5 votes

Only vote for the option you prefer (First -Middle name fields + Married name)

1. Concerning the first - middle name fields or the married name, to have a guideline to prevent problems, should we decide, in case of a disagreement, members will have to start a G2G where they can ask other project members to vote for one of both options ? 

1. Voor wat betref die voor-middel naam velde en getroude naam. Om tog 'n richtlijn te hê, om probleme te voorkom, sal ons besluiten af ​​afspreken dat by 'n meningsverschil lede sal 'n G2G moet begin, waar hulle ander lede kan vra om te stem vir een van beide opsies ?

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
+7 votes

Only vote for the option you prefer (First-Middle name fields + Married name)

1. Concerning the first - middle name fields or the married name, we also need more specific guidelines

1. Voor wat betref die voor-middel naam velde en getroude naam, moet ons ook meer spesifieke riglyne het

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma

Since this option is running marginally ahead on votes right now, I'm adding my comment here. I don't mind whether we vote for specific guidelines, as long as those guidelines do not require compulsory use of the middle name field.

Hier is die rede hoekom: as jou profiel een van die semi-private opsies is, en jou voorkeurnaam is nie jou eerste naam nie, lyk dit koddig op die openbare aansig. Daardie middelnaam word 'n voorletter. Bv.

Last name at birth: van Zyl

First name: John

Middle name: Laurie

Preferred name: Laurie

Dit vertoon as Laurie L. van Zyl op enige vlak van Privaat. Eers by Publiek word dit John Laurie (Laurie) van Zyl.

Aan die ander kant:

First name: John Laurie

No middle name

Preferred name: Laurie

Dir vertoon as Laurie van Zyl op alle vlakke van Privaat.

 

Dirk,

Presies om die rede gebruik ek nie "Middle name" in my profiele nie. Benewens dit gebruik ek "Prefered name" om variasies soos wat soms op sterftekennisse voorkom te dokumenteer, om opspoorbaarheid en identifisering makliker te kan maak.
+10 votes

 Only vote for the option you prefer (PPP + Projek Profiel)

2. PPP + add project profile:  only profiles of 200 years and older and younger ones only if needed (if for example the LNAB wasn't consistent or changed or if there's a high risk profiles are duplicated or if the connection with parents also needs protection)  The active profile manager also stays manager, but not more than one + project profile, all others stay co-manager but will move to the trusted list.

2. PPP + projek profiel toevoegen: net profiele van 200 jaar en ouer en jonger mense net as dit nodig is (as byvoorbeeld die LNAB was nie steeds in ooreenstemming of verandert of as daar 'n hoë risiko is die profiele is gedupliseer of as ok die connectie met die ouers moet word n beskermd) Die aktiewe profiel bestuurder bly ook bestuurder, maar nie meer as een + die projek profiel as medebestuurder, die ander bestuurder (s) bly mede-bestuurder maar gaan na de vertrou lys

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma

What I like about being profile manager is that people who have important contributions like new family members to make must contact me. I know who they are, they tell me what their interest in the profile is, we exchange one or two e-mails.

If I am only on the trusted list, I can see a record of who did what once a week. It tends to get swamped among the many other things in that e-mail.

I don't mind having other managers besides myself, as long as of course they don't remove me. In fact, once I lose interest in a profile (my wife's great-aunt's second husband, for example) I am only too thankful that there is someone to whim I can hand the baton and I may well remove myself.

I understand what you mean Dirk because the SAR profiles are younger, it's of course quite different from profiles that are pre-1811 and that are and will have to be shared by many many descendants sometimes. I totally understand it's nice to get in touch with others and receive email from people who are interested or perhaps related to you or someone in your family, so don't worry it looks like most members prefer this option also. 

And I found something just today you perhaps might like.. 

As I tried to explain in the other G2G, the project profiles, if they are added as manager or to the trusted list, is creating a Project watchlist and Project feed, which makes it possible we all can watch over, work on, keep track of and share our ancestors and also make sure they will always have a project and project members who care for and watch over them for as long as WT exists, so they never will be orphaned.

Now I have added a little something including the links to the Project Watch list and the Project feed to the project page (Goals), the feed you can compare a bit with the project Google group (in the group we can also see read/posts so it's easier to manage the project and communicate),. So for those of you interested just take a look and if you didn't already request to be added to the Google group it's really making our WT lives and managing the projects a lot easier ;)  

There is something I never quite caught, This Google group. We're supposed to join it somehow? We're not automatically members of it if we have a badge saying SARoots? So what exactly is it that we still have to do?

No you're not automatically a member of the Google group, in our case Susan is the manager of the SAR Project profile Google Group, so as soon as she receives a request she will add our members to the group. 

Nee, jy is nie outomaties 'n lid van die Google-groep, in ons geval is Susan die bestuurder van die SAR-projek profiel Google groep, sodra sy 'n versoek ontvang sal sy in staat wees om ons lede by te voeg aan die groep.

We have added a link to the how to join content of our project, (see point 5) if you click on it Susan will receive a message and she will add you to the group . You can check if you click on it if you are added already or not, if you see this: WikiTree's South African Roots Project Privé gedeeld + 30 van de 35 onderwerpen (0 ongelezen) you're already in, if you don't it will say request access of wordt lid or something. 

Ons het 'n skakel by die hoe om aan te sluit inhoud van ons projek, (sien punt 5) as jy op die skakel klik, sal Susan 'n boodskap ontvang en sy sal jou by dra tot die groep. Jy kan kyk as jy op dit klik as jy reeds bygevoeg was of nie, as jy klik en sien hierdie: WikiTree se Suid-Afrikaanse Roots projek Privé gedeeld + 30 van die 35 onderwerpe (0 ongelezen) is jy reeds toegevoeg, as jy dit nie sien sal et sê versoek vir toegang of word lid of iets.

(Google translate so forgive me if there are mistakes ;) )

Susan and Ronel both are on a vacation now, so they will check in every once in a while, but it can take a little longer and this is also why we now are a bit on hold. As soon as they have returned we will be able to make a final proposal (or two) and let our members decide which one they prefer..
+6 votes

Only vote for the option you prefer (PPP + Projek Profiel)

 2. PPP + add project profile:  only profiles of 200 years and older and younger ones only if needed (if for example the LNAB wasn't consistent or changed or if there's a high risk profiles are duplicated or if the connection with parents also needs protection) The Project Profile is going to be added as manager, all others stay co-manager but will move to the trusted list. 

2. PPP + projek profiel toevoeging: net profiele van 200 jaar en ouer en jonger mense net as dit nodig is (as byvoorbeeld die LNAB was nie steeds in ooreenstemming of verandert of as daar 'n hoë risiko is die profiele is gedupliseer of as ok die connectie met die ouers moet word n beskermdDie projek profiel word bestuurder, die ander bestuurder (s) bly mede-bestuurder maar gaan na de vertrou lys

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (311k points)
edited by Bea Wijma

This one has my vote perhaps with the possibility of "adoption" of bio's (not the profiles as such) in a sense that one take's care of it's "curation" in a costodial fashion, as here with this lemma of the http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/vrouwenlexicon/lemmata/data/christiaens of the KNAW (Huygens ING and the OGC of the UU) in the Netherlands.

Also, my objection to having one manager stay on as active on the PPP'd profiles along with the project manager, is at a certain critical moment it will become an untenable situation. Too many Kruger descendants for example, and even people descendent from Oom Paul but now with different LN'sAB, might have equal right to be active manager of his personal profile.

That is why the trusted list was invented for in the first place.

Also - remember - an active member can "remove" the Project as Active Custodial manager and then "claim" the sole active managership of that profile. It has happened in the COGH project before.

Taking someone off as project manager without even consulting him about it (which also has happened in the COGH project before) in order to get in before he does that to the project is tantamount to saying "the project does not trust you".

If we can't trust each other, we need to get out of WikiTree right now. He did.
In this case (my comment above) this is not an applicable argument. It is not about trust. Yes, in the past people have been surprised (one out of the ten) that they have been removed. And of those one in ten left. For other reasons as well.

We have since implemented a policy of posting comments (including links to the reasoning why). People are well informed in the COGH project.

The project trusts that people will see the benefit of working within a collaborative project. The only rules are those that facilitate our communal editing - in that we all need to be able to "read" the others editing contributions and understand them. There are rules for spelling and grammar in all languages (in order to make communication possible, to create meaning and sense). It is the same for WikiTree.

There are many reasons why people leave WikiTree. This is certainly one of the lesser reasons.
My problem is that the way project territories are delimited seems to allow the project to say (taking CoGH as an example only because the rule is so easy): "Aha! Born at the Cape in 1789! This profile is OURS!" Then slap a PPP on it, never mind that hardly anyone except the original profile creator has ever worked on it, and kick him off.

I can see that it makes sense (even though I do not agree that the plusses outweigh the minuses) for CoGH. No living person's grandfather is involved. Probably not even the grandfather's grandfather.

But I don't want it for SARoots. The brief is simply too broad. It's basically everyone. What would stop the project from claiming both my grandfathers (I've put in some serious work on both) and just dumping me?
I agree on the latter Dirk. For the COGH project it works, for the SAR it might not.

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