Edward III Project: Gateway Ancestors - do you have one?

Question

One of the stated goals of the Edward III Project is to develop a list of proven gateway ancestors to Edward III.  This post goes a long way towards that goal.

Below is a list of 17th century new world immigrants with a recognized descent from Edward III, king of England. The list was kindly provided by Douglas Richardson, author of the Royal Ancestry series.  Links to all of them can be found on this page.

This list currently is 70 individuals representing 55 different families. Of the 70 individuals, 32 settled in the Southern Colonies, 27 in the New England Colonies, and 11 were part of the Quaker migration to the Middle Colonies.

Use the Relationship Finder to find if you have a connection to Edward III, king of England (Plantagenet-70). Does your gateway ancestor appear below?  If not, we will work to prove or disprove your connection.

Do you have a gateway ancestor from a population group other than American colonial immigrants (e.g. Australian, South African, European, etc.)? Post them here or in a separate G2G post and we will create new categories and new lists to track them. The line must be very well documented.

The List of 17th Century New World Immigrants

Barbara Aubrey, John Barclay, John Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, St. Leger Codd, Elizabeth & Thomas Coytemore, William Crymes, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Rowland Ellis, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Patrick Houston, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Agnes Mackworth, Oliver Manwaring, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, John West, Hawte Wyatt.

Some confirmed additions:

William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Marmaduke Beckwith, William Farrar, Elizabeth Mansfield, Anne Mansfield, John Mansfield, Robert Spotswood, Robert Rose, Margaret Toshach

Comments

All three of those are gateway ancestors to medieval English ancestry.  I do not think any of them have a line to Edward III (which is what we are looking for).

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Yes. Frances Deighton is my gateway ancestor. She is my 10th great grandmother.

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Edward III is the 21th great grandfather of Rachael.

Frances Deighton is the gateway ancestor. She is my 10th great greandmother.

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My husband, [[Strutt-262|David Strutt]] is a direct descendant of Edward III, Plantagenet-70.

20. David Strutt, 19. Audrey Lett, 18. Pittman Lett, 17. Florence Gertrude Ferguson, 16. George Ferguson, 15. John Ferguson, 14. Helen Stewart 13, Robert Stewart, 12 Alexander Stewart, 11. Alexander Stewart, 10. Janet Stewart 9. Anne Campbell, 8. Colin Campbell, 7. Annas Campbell 6. Colin Campbell, 5. Mariote Stewart, 4. John Stewart, 3. Joan Beaufort 2. John Beaufort 1. John Plantagenet, 0.  Edward III. I only just discovered this so will have to to more DNA checking to prove it.

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These are coming in much faster than I can research and answer.  I hope to get to all of them. Any help appreciated.

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Anna, please post your line to the new G2G question:

Edward III Project: Gateway Ancestors - do you have one? (Round 3)

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Joe, Will a Gateway category for New France be added? As my gateway  to  Plantagenet-70 comes thru Anne Couvent.

Angela Boyer Cortner

Boyer-3525

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I think there is a legitimate issue with the connection between Francois de Joyeuse and Robert de Joyeuse.

Francois says in a 1733 notarial act that he is the son of Robert de Joyeuse, but offers no proof of it. To me that's problematic and Gagné and Laurent Kokanosky fail to provide any proof besides Francois saying it.Medieval Lands has a great explanation as to why the connection is suspicious and unsubstantiated. 

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#FrancoisJoyeusedied1556B

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Thanks Darrell, the link  contains  so much interesting research on this family line.

Hoping someone has access to any missing documents that would help.

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As of now nobody talks about it, but I would love to know more and examine the records myself. Unfortunately countless times in the past people would go from embellishing their family to outright publishing connections that were fantasy. I would hate to see the Anne Couvent line be perpetually duplicated if it may not be correct at this de Joyeuse point. Unfortunately that is also the connection (Francois to supposed father Robert) that establishes her gateway ancestor status. We need some help in France to answer the nagging questions!

Darrell

Answer 1

King edward the 3rd is my 22nd great grandfather my dad has somthing to prove it too...

Answer 2

Surprising -- I'm descended from Edward III, through the Skinners, Talcotts, and Hollisters of Connecticut.

This trail tells us that Edward III is the 20th great grandfather of Janine.

Thanks, that made my day!  PS, is there another project related to Charlemagne?  Because the Connecticut Tisdales were also in that line -- through Rainsford-2.  

Comments

It will be nice when Wikitree can go back to Charlemagne and find relationship to him or for that matter any ancestor that far back. I have Charlemagne many times. It would also be nice if that app was a part of Wikitree as well

Thanks

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Hi Darrel, Wikitree does have a profile for Charlemagne https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Carolingian-77

What you might mean is that the relationship finder and connection finder do not always work to find a connection. There are going to be 2 reasons:

1. The algorithm seems to not always work perfectly and has limits. Because Charlemagne is so many generations back, these problems become more important than when you search for connections to much more recent people like Edward III. A common solution is to try using a profile of an ancestor, closer to Charlemagne, like indeed Edward III might be for some people. (He is Plantagenet-70.)

2. Wikitree is incomplete. We need to check to make sure that key people are not missing in wikitree. The most obvious job for all Wikitree editors in this regard is to go backwards from modern generations, looking for problems. The Edward III project that seems to be gaining ground is going the other way, working forward from a descendant of Charlemagne who happens to be responsible for a lot of links to royalty.

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Thanks for the information Andrew it much appreciated

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I'm trying to go back through these lines to see which still need fixing.  Thank you Kirk Hess for correcting the profile of Elizabeth Fairfax.   This corrects the line originally posted.

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Im also desended from my great grandfather King John I of magna carta infamy. Ironically, Every persona in the Magna Carta drama (all Surety Barrons and The King John), are my great grandfathers!

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That's interesting, I found similar results with some identified as great grandfathers, or cousins...

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The connection to my bigod is clear. But charlomagne was his 19th grandfather.  But its not right. Because I match bigod.
But not charlamagne. So something isnt right.

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Hi Darrell,

Because Wikitree only allows 30 generations (and it sometimes will only go back 27 or 28 and then no more), what I do is find an ancestor 10-15 generations back and print out my link to them. Then I start with them (use their name and number from Wikitree) and then try Charlamagne as that will usually be enough generations to get where you want to go and then you can see how many generations from Charlamagne the other ancestor is from Charlamagne and add those generations to how many you are from the ancestor and you then have a number. Does this make sense?    

I put in my name and number (Matheson-622) and Marjory Mainwaring Bromley (Mainwaring-7) in the Relationship Finder boxes and she comes up as my 18th great grandmother. Then I put her in the first box and then Charlamagne in second box (Carolingian-77) and he is her 21st great grandfather, which makes him my 39th great grandfather on my mother's side. I can do the same on my dad's side with a different ancestor and he is my 38th great grandfather on my dad's side.

Any of the ancient ancestors whom I want to see if I am related to I do this way, I sometimes choose different ancestors to see if there is a connection as I have occasionally found 2-3 ways to get to the same ancestor- through different ancestors and some are longer generations than the others.

I am related to Charlamagne through both my paternal grandparent's lines and through my mom's paternal line. Also 19 of the Surety Barons as direct grandfathers (and also King John).

I have been able to trace my ancestry back to the Plantagenet and Capet lines (English and French Kings). Also to the ancient Welsh kings, Anglo Saxon Kings, Norwegian Kings, a couple Danish and Swedish Kings, and several Vikings (many come through Charlamagne) by using this means of finding my earlier ancestors using Relationship Finder.

I also have found a false lineage that takes me back to the Hapsburgs, but because I am aware that the Von Kleve line is disputed with one ancestor and is not related to the one listed, I know this line to be fake and that I am NOT related to the Von Kleves or the Hapsburgs as it has not been proven and probably never will be. I do not want to embrace disputed lines- I want the truth.

I hope this helps. If this is not clear, please write me and I will clarify it better.

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Anyone descended from Edward III must be descended from Charlemagne because Edward III.

There are doubtless dozens of ways to get from Edward III to Charlemagne, but this one makes him Charlemagane's 16th great grandson.

Edward III was the son of Edward II and Isabella of France; Edward II was the son of Edward I and Eleanor of Castile; Edward I was the son of Henry III and Eleanor of Provence; Henry III was the son of John of England and Isabelle of Angouleme;  King John was the son of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine;  Henry II was the son of Matilda of England and Geoffrey of Anjou; Matilda of England was daughter of Henry I and Matilda of Scotland; Henry I was the son of William I and Matilda of Flanders; Matilda of Flanders was the daughter of Baudoin V of Flanders and Adela of France; Baudouin V of Flanders was son of Baudouin IV of Flanders and Ogive of Luxembourg; Baudouin IV was son of Arnulf II of Flanders; Arnulf II was son of Baudouin III and Mathilde of Saxony; Baudouin III was son of Arnulf I and Adela of Vermandois;  Arnulf I was son of Baudouin II and Aelfthryth of Wessex; Baudouin II was son of Baudouin I and Judith of France;  Judith was daughter of Charles II and Ermentrude of Orleans;  Charles II was the Son of Louis the Pious and Judith of Altorf;  Louis the Pious was son of Charlemagne and Hildegard of Vinzgouw.

The point is that by the time that you get to a key figure like Edward III (or Charlemagne) you are finding extensive recorded and historical links going back centuries.

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I have the same connection to all of the surety barons whose line hasn’t died out. I guess we’re related on many levels!

Answer 3

Thomas Ligon is profiled on Who Do You Think You Are when they were tracing the ancestors of Courtney Cox. I watched it on my DVR last night and it was so interesting I watched it twice. He goes all the way back through Edward I to William the Conqueror.

Comments

Thank you!

Answer 4

This is quite interesting.  According to the relationship finder.  Edward III is a  possible cousin.   As are all of the people on this list , according to the relationship finder I share anywhere from 30 to 105 relationships with the people on the list.  One of those relationships is a possible direct relationship to Edward I.  I did find some grandfathers I didn't know about.    So I have no known Gateway ancestors.

Comments

You are probably right Trudy. Most people who can connect to a few other families on wikitree will have cousin relationships to basically everyone else on the main tree including royalty.

But how disappointing it can be to find out that wikitree does contain mistakes so a link might be wrong. And how even more disappointing to find that it missing real links that someone needs to put in. It means lots of work to do (and basically for any internet family tree the situation is the same).

We are still in early days of making wikitree a reliable resource, and so the direct lines seem a good first clean up step.

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Andrew it will take me forever to prove or disprove connections to any Royalty.   1600s Virginia is making me crazy.  On both my parents.  On my mum I'm stuck on her great grand parents   William and Isabella Grant.  Fresh from Scotland.  Supposedly related to royalty.  I still find it amazing that a bunch of South Carolina hill bullies could have such rich history.

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Try Australian convicts Trudy :)

Most of us will have our biggest walls already in the 18th century, or even 19th.

I had been working on medieval genealogy for years before I found one single 6x great grandparent (8 generations back) who connects to the big tree without using marriages. Finally I could actually name some way I connected to some of them.

To put that in perspective we all had 2^8=256 such grand parents, and unless we are lucky we probably only know who a few of them are.

But on the other hand, you get a lot of shots at goal.

Answer 5

Well, I get a descent via Captain Thomas Savage, but I already know John Savage is not Thomas' son; he was born when poor Faith Hutchinson was 13, and seven years before she married Thomas.  I'll deal with John (he needs a PPP protection); Captain Thomas is all yours.

1. Patricia is the daughter of Bruce Hawkins Jr. [confident]
2. Bruce is the son of Doris Mabel (Dickinson) Hawkins [confident]
3. Doris is the daughter of Homer Ferry Dickinson [confident]
4. Homer is the son of Henry Anderson Dickinson [confident]
5. Henry is the son of Henry Anderson Dickinson [confident]
6. Henry is the son of Eli Dickinson [confident]
7. Eli is the son of Esther (White) Dickinson [unknown confidence]
8. Esther is the daughter of Nathaniel White [unknown confidence]
9. Nathaniel is the son of Elizabeth (Savage) White [unknown confidence]
10. Elizabeth is the daughter of John Savage [unknown confidence]
11. John is the son of Thomas Savage [unknown confidence]
12. Thomas is the son of Thomas Savage [confident]
13. Thomas is the son of John Savage [unknown confidence]
14. John is the son of John (Savage) of Rocksavage 1st Bt. [unknown confidence]
15. John VIII is the son of Elizabeth (Somerset) Brereton [confident]
16. Elizabeth is the daughter of Charles Somerset KG [confident]
17. Charles is the son of Henry (Somerset) Beaufort [unknown confidence]
18. Henry is the son of Edmund Beaufort KG [unknown confidence]
19. Edmund is the son of John Beaufort KG [unknown confidence]
20. John is the son of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence]
21. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident]

This trail tells us that Edward III is the 19th great grandfather of Patricia.

Comments

The origins of Captain Thomas Savage are not known from what I can tell and needs to be disconnected from the Savage of Rock Savage line.  He has an extensive write-up by Anderson in the Great Migration Series.  I will see if I can get a little help from the PGM group and get him Project Protected.

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Make that Captain Thomas Savage is certainly not the son of Sir Thomas Savage, 1st Viscount Savage and Elizabeth Darcy, Countess Rivers suo jure.  They had a son Thomas but he married Elizabeth Whitmore and died in 1655.

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In case anyone reads these things...after some research Capt. Thomas lost his parents who had a son Thomas who was not born in Cheshire, married someone else and never emigrated. However, Joe put a comment in the profile that based on the picture with the correct arms of Savage of Rock Savage (''six lions sable'') as well as on his tombstone, he still might be closely connected through one of the younger brothers of Sir Thomas Savage. Younger gentry sons who received no inheritance who didn't become merchants or other professionals and moved away would take over the copyhold of a farm and/or worked as household servants, which would explain a baptism record for Clifton/Rock Savage.

Answer 6

Thank you for doing this Joe and Andrew and others.

I'm not sure about other countries, but I do know that Australia doesn't have  the same sort of gateway ancestors as you find in the United States. Perhaps because it was settled by Anglo/Europeans later, and many of those who stayed were likely to be convicts and their ancestry is not as easy to trace?

Also not sure about European descent from Edward III, but I do know that all the current European monarchies and a good number of monarchies abolished have a common ancestor in James I (VI) and Anne of Denmark, and James would be descended from Edward III in multiple lines.

Comments

Hi John, a better way to say it is that America has its own special way of defining and listing gateway ancestors that is very well-known, whereas in other countries the word is used flexibly. Australian immigrants in the 19th century are a very mixed bag in terms of how hard they are to trace back, so I should not exaggerate how difficult they are. In fact one thing about them is that there were lots of records. The problems tend to start back in the old countries.

Concerning European Edward III descents this is a fascinating question. Wikitree currently has a lot of work to do in this regard. For specialists on these lines an attempt at defining some tasks is the listing of ggg grand children here: https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Project:Edward_III_descents_past_gen_5

One cross check that RJ and myself already did (I made the graphic pedigrees down the bottom!) is here: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:A_table_of_descendants_of_Edward_III_-_002

But it is definitely not all royalty in Europe. For example an interesting connection is to Gascony (the Bordeaux region) which was held by England for centuries, long after they lost Normandy. There should be Henry IV descendants there: https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Project:Edward_III_descents_past_gen_5#King_Henry_IV_table

Concerning the Edward III project more generally Joe recently proposed making a central page, given that we have a small handful now. That makes a lot of sense! Currently the closest thing to a central listing is on the first page but it is a true working page, and a bit hard to read: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:A_table_of_descendants_of_Edward_III

Answer 7

Hi Joe and thank you for the work you are doing on Edward III!

Will this line work?

5. James is the son of Thomas Jefferson Stroud [unknown confidence] 
6. Thomas is the son of Nancy (Stubblefield) Stroud [unknown confidence] 
7. Nancy is the daughter of Robert Loxley Stubblefield [unknown confidence] 
8. Robert Loxley is the son of George Stubblefield [unknown confidence] 
9. George is the son of Anne (Wyatt) Stubblefield [unknown confidence] 
10. Anne is the daughter of James Wyatt [unknown confidence] 
11. James is the son of Conquest Wyatt [unknown confidence] 
12. Conquest is the son of Edward Wyatt [unknown confidence] 
13. Edward is the son of Hawte Wyatt [confident] 

Thank you!

 

Comments

Hawte Wyatt is on the list, so yes it works as a proven line from him on up to EIII.

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Thank you, Joe!

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BTW, Joe, RJ Horace, gets the credit for this line! RJ, had suggested to me, Jane Finch, mother of Hawte Wyatt, for a trail I was working on to reach one of the Magna Carta Barons. Thanks, RJ!

And, thank you, Joe, for the work you are doing on the Edward III.

Answer 8

Lynden Rodriguez commented:I have one, Alice Harry-118, but she's not on the list, and her line may not have been developed enough.

Lynden, I put this line as a separate answer so I can track it more easily.

9. William is the son of Richard Nance [confident] 
10. Richard is the son of John Harry Nance [confident] 
11. John is the son of Alice Harry [unknown confidence] 
12. Alice is the daughter of Anne Harris [unknown confidence] 
13. Anne is the daughter of William Harris II [unknown confidence] 
14. William is the son of William Harris I [unknown confidence] 
15. William is the son of Johanna (Percy) Harris [unknown confidence] 
16. Joan is the daughter of Thomas Percy [unknown confidence] 
17. Thomas is the son of Henry Algernon Percy KG, KB [unknown confidence] 
18. Henry is the son of Henry Percy KG [unknown confidence] 
19. Henry is the son of Henry Percy [confident] 
20. Henry is the son of Henry Percy [confident] 
21. Henry is the son of Elizabeth (Mortimer) Camoys [confident] 
22. Elizabeth is the daughter of Philippa (Plantagenet) Mortimer [unknown confidence] 
23. Philippa is the daughter of Lionel (Plantagenet) of Antwerp KG [confident] 
24. Lionel is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

Comments

This line is going to fail at Joanna Percy, though it is so tangled that it is going to some work to fix.

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This is the source

https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofess13metc#page/59/

There's also said to be a Percy pedigree by Vincent the herald which credits Thomas Percy and Eleanor Harbottle with 3 daughters

- Mary

- Katherine, m Ralph Ryther

- Joan, m Arthur Harris

but Vincent will have got it from the Visitation, so it's not independent.  The Ryther marriage is totally impossible.

Answer 9

I have this guy - can I help be the Disconnectrix? :)

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Southard-61

It's not an area of expertise for me, but I'd love to remove disproven lineages.

Comments

This one may be a very good line to followup on.  The key question is going to be what is the evidence that the immigrant Thomas Southard-61 was from Leiden and that he was the son of Thomas Southworth-72.

Bea Wijma, the profile manager on these two, is a very good researcher who works from the primary records of Leiden.  I would be slow to break this line and would be interested to hear what she has to say.

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The proposed Southard line:

1. Thomas is the son of Thomas Southworth II [unknown confidence] 
2. Thomas is the son of Thomas Southworth Esq [unknown confidence] 
3. Thomas is the son of John Southworth [unknown confidence] 
4. John is the son of Thomas Southworth [unknown confidence] 
5. Thomas is the son of Helen (Langton) Southworth [unknownconfidence] 
6. Helen is the daughter of Isabel (Gerrard) Langton [unknown confidence] 
7. Isabel is the daughter of Peter Gerard [unknown confidence] 
8. Peter is the son of Sir Thomas Gerard [unknown confidence] 
9. Sir Thomas is the son of Isabelle (Strangeways) Gerard [unknown confidence] 
10. Isabelle is the daughter of Catherine (Neville) Mowbray [uncertain] 
11. Catherine is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) de Neville LG [confident] 
12. Joan is the daughter of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknownconfidence] 
13. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

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Thank you Joe !

 I will check the archives tomorrow if that's ok , might take a while to find sources, sometimes the names were pretty 'Dutchified' so have to enter a whole bunch of variatons of the Southart etc. name :P

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I agree that this particular family lacks good evidence but they aren't as suspect as some of these other lines we can easily disprove. They also did us no favors by missing the Mayflower so they aren't researched by Pilgrim scholars. Bea - if you could also look into Edward Southworth, Thomas' supposed younger brother and his sons Constant and Thomas I'd appreciate it!

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Leave it to my ancestors to miss the boat, as it were. I'm happy to hear the lineage might actually be valid. Perhaps we can also find sources to firm up the early American part of my line, as the wanderings from Pennsylvania to Ohio to South Carolina and Virginia seem a bit much for these first two generations:

7. Joshua is the son of Mary Anna (Embree) Duncan [unknown confidence] 
8. Mary is the daughter of Moses Embree [unknown confidence] 
9. Moses is the son of Mary Southard [confident] 
10. Mary is the daughter of Thomas Southard Jr. [unknown confidence] 
11. Thomas is the son of Thomas Southard [unknown confidence] 
 

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For Edward I already added his marriage record a while ago, he had a brother Thomas also, who was a witness at this marriage, and now I remember why the name sounded so familiar. Will see if perhaps they moved around a bit and will check for more sources this weekend

And for anyone who is interested (perhaps there's something there about or for the Southwarts as well so we can all dig trough them ;)  : Leyden Documents Relating to the Pilgrim Fahters # Permission to reside at Leyden and betrothal records together with parallel documents from the Amsterdam archives Fascimile, transcript translation and annotiations by Dr. D. Plooij of Leyden and Dr. J. Rendel Harris of Manchester . 74 phototypic plates under the auspices of the Netherland Ameria Institute Gift Of Mrs. Grace M. Vellema February 1993  

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Thanks Joe already looking for Thomas and others, and added the source with the records and transcripts + translations, to the post above. Edward Southwarth is mentioned in a lot of the betrothals, and of course many others. There's also an explanation about why it's sometimes so hard to find them here, Dutchified names + sometimes they only were registered with the probably also Dutchified patronymics.

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That's a great source - I learned Samuel Fuller was the brother-in-law of Edward Southworth and Thomas Southworth through Edward's wife Alice's sister Agnes.

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Yes Kirk he indeed was ;) I added the source for the marriage (image + link to the archive + transcript (also in English) to Agnes Carpenters profile now as well. The source I added above also explains a whole lot about the names and the confusion about them, some were translated and written in Dutch or Dutchified , so for some it's really hard to recognize they were the correct ones, sometimes they were registered with just their patronymics, and so on so it's quite a puzzle . What helps is this was a really close community they all are witnessing eachothers weddings or baptisms, so that's also how we know and can figure out the relations between them all. 

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I started a new G2G topic for the Southworths. along with writing up a discussion of the problems.

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/366945/alleged-royal-ancestry-of-edward-southworth 

Answer 10

After finding that my own [alleged] descent traces through a recognized Gateway, it dawned on me that I could check the relationship paths for my other ancestral lines to see if there are some questionable gateways to Edward. Sure enough, I found two questionable gateways!

This questionable line is the one I found for my paternal grandmother (this is the part of the trail that goes from colonial Massachusetts back to Edward III):

7. Elizabeth (Mott) Littlefield 
8. Elizabeth is the daughter of Hannah (Niles) Mott
9. Hannah is the daughter of Jane (Reed) Niles - this is the immigrant, and she is surely a weak link in the chain; the profile for her alleged father seems to have conflated/confused several people
10. Jane is the daughter of Lucy (Heneage) Reade [
11. Lucy is the daughter of Michael Heneage
12. Michael is the son of Lucy (Buckton) Heneage
13. Lucy is the daughter of Anne (Heslarton) Buckton
14. Anne is the daughter of Thomas John Heslarton
15. Thomas is the son of Havisia (Neville) Heslarton
16. Havisia is the daughter of Mary (Ferrers) Neville
17. Mary is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) de Neville LG 
18. Joan is the daughter of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG
19. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England

And this is the line for my mother (this one starts in colonial Connecticut):

8. Henry Stevens Jr.
9. Henry is the son of Elizabeth (Gallup) Stephens 
10. Elizabeth is the daughter of Hannah (Lake) Gallup - she immigrated
11. Hannah is the daughter of John Lake - his wife and children immigrated, but he stayed in England
12. John is the son of John Lake
13. John is the son of Richard Lake
14. Richard is the son of John Lake
15. John is the son of Katherine (Peck) Lake
16. Katherine is the daughter of John Peck Esquire
17. John is the son of Richard Peck 
18. Richard is the son of Joan (Harrington) Peck
19. Joan is the daughter of Matilda (Clifford) Sutton
20. Maud is the daughter of Thomas Clifford [confident]
21. Thomas is the son of Elizabeth (Percy) Neville [confident]
22. Elizabeth is the daughter of Elizabeth (Mortimer) Camoys
23. Elizabeth is the daughter of Philippa (Plantagenet) Mortimer
24. Philippa is the daughter of Lionel (Plantagenet) of Antwerp KG
25. Lionel is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England

Comments

I disconnected Jane (Reed) Niles from the parents she was attached to, so the first questionable line I posted above is now cut off. Some of the other children who are currently attributed to those parents in WikiTree may also be undocumented gateways who still need to be disconnected.

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Regarding that second line I posted above, I find that my paternal grandmother has a different supposed lineage to Edward that runs through Henry Peck, the brother of John Peck Esq, whose profile is one of several that has particularly weak sourcing.

I recall that Horatio Gates Somerby was associated with a probably-fraudulent Peck pedigree that was subsequently published by Ira Ballou Peck. Somerby fraud may affect some of the reported connections for people named Peck.

Edited about an hour after initial posting. I got confused about the different lines I was looking at.

Added: The PGM immigrant descendants (i.e. Questionable Gateway Ancestors) of Henry Peck are Robert Peck and Joseph Peck.

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I think the Pecks of Wakefield had a dubious family pedigree a long time before Somerby.

Saw another one recently where Somerby seemed to have latched the client onto a dodgy line.  Cotton of Landwade?

Sir John Harrington-4299 left 2 daughters, Anne and Elizabeth.  No Joan.

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That Heslarton Neville connection was one that RJ and I were reflagged during ourvrecent review of Edward 3 descents.

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Regarding the Lake line, everything after Richard Lake is in error.

His parents are unknown.  His wife is unknown.  He did not marry Anne Wardell.  He did not marry Anne Morley.

A couple of errors are happening here.

First, John Lake who married Elizabeth Lone was his brother and not his father.  Their parents are unknown.

Richard Lake of North Benfleet co. Essex has also been confused with Richard Lake of Erby Lincolnshire who did marry Anne Wardell and Anne Morley.

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Good to know. I hope the folks who are familiar with the records will make the appropriate corrections in the Lake lineage -- and help reduce our inventory of spurious royal ancestries.

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I've disconnected Richard Lake from his erroneous parents. He and his brother John (and other siblings) are now the children of "Unknown Lake." And this means that both of the alleged lineages I posted here are removed from WikiTree.

I haven't yet dealt with Richard Lake's alleged wives -- I don't have info about Richard Lake of Lincolnshire.

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I'll get them Ellen.  These Lake's are also in my ancestry.

Richard's wife is unknown.  He was a widower when he died so we don't even have her first name from a will.

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While looking for something else I came across this stray mention of the Peck-Harrington marriage.

http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2013-08/1375902884

Apparently Joan was said to be daughter of John Harrington of Doncaster.  A man answering to that description died in 1465 - the uncle of Harrington-4299.  Richardson doesn't mention any kids, though he omits to say "They had no issue".  He claims to have proved that this John couldn't be the ancestor of the Copleys of Doncaster, who are generally said to have inherited his property.  Terry Booth disputes this.

For John to be the father of Joan, I think he'd need to have married again after his wife died in 1462.  Stranger things have happened.  (PS doesn't work, she'd have been born too late to have her descendants.)

 

 

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Joan Harrington in 1530 Visitation.

https://books.google.com/books?id=swQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA81

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https://books.google.com/books?id=hS47AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA199

mentuons another John Harrington in circulation, though it doesn't say how he connects.

 

Answer 11

Hi,  I've just rerun the Relationship Finder -- through another line, I'm still a descendant.  But -- I do not see the names on your list.  Thanks for taking a look at this one, as well!  

7. Obediah is the son of Sarah (Flanders) Clement [unknown confidence] 
8. Sarah is the daughter of Sarah Jane (Colby) Flanders [unknown confidence] 
9. Sarah Jane is the daughter of Sarah (Eldridge) Colby [unknown confidence] 
10. Sarah is the daughter of Anne (Lumpkin) Eldredge [unknown confidence] 
11. Anna is the daughter of Thomasine (Constable) Lumpkin [unknownconfidence] 
12. Tamesin is the daughter of Thomas Constable [unknown confidence] 
13. Thomas is the son of Robert Constable I [unknown confidence] 
14. Robert is the son of Thomas Constable MP [unknown confidence] 
15. Thomas is the son of Jane (Ingleby) Chomley [unknown confidence] 
16. Jane is the daughter of Katherine Stillington [unknown confidence] 
17. Katherine is the daughter of Agnes Bigod [unknown confidence] 
18. Agnes is the daughter of Anne (Greystoke) Bigod [unknown confidence] 
19. Anne is the daughter of Elizabeth (Ferrers) Greystoke [unknown confidence] 
20. Elizabeth is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) de Neville LG [unknown confidence] 
21. Joan is the daughter of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 
22. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

This trail tells us that Edward III is the 20th great grandfather of Janine.  

Well, Lumpkin-1 may need more sourcing; there's a comment:

Categories: Serious Data Problems.

This poor woman had a child when she was 49 years old and three when she was 59. And her husband died a year before the first of the four was born.

PS I am still building my line to the Connecticut Talcotts.  I'm related through Talcott-45.

Comments

I will get to all of these potential lines eventually.  They are starting to come too fast and there are not enough hours in the day to properly check them out.

As a quick check, it does not appear as accepted that the wife of William Lumpkin was Thomasin Constable.

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Thank you.  I am not in a hurry at all and I appreciate your help, as well as the help of those who went before us to build these trees.

The Internet can bring many people together -- but we all have lives to live, people to see, responsibilities to manage.  Sometimes I've been hot on a trail researching information -- but life intervenes.  

Quality takes time.

Answer 12

Via Ann Bagley, wife of William Brinton, wealthy Quakers.  I've been wondering about this line for a long time.

Ann is the daughter of Edward Bagley [unknown confidence]
12. Edward is the son of Ann Tomlinson [unknown confidence]
13. Ann is the daughter of Edward Sutton [unknown confidence]
14. Edward is the son of Edward Sutton [unknown confidence]
15. Edward is the son of John Sutton [unknown confidence]
16. John VII is the son of Cicely (Willoughby) Sutton [unknown confidence]
17. Cecilia is the daughter of Joan (Strangeways) Berkeley [unknown confidence]
18. Jane is the daughter of Catherine (Neville) Mowbray [unknown confidence]
19. Catherine is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) de Neville LG [confident]
20. Joan is the daughter of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence]
21. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

Comments

I will get to all of these potential lines eventually.  They are starting to come too fast and there are not enough hours in the day to properly check them out.

As quick spot check using the references on the page - the ancestry of Edward Bagley is disputed and should be considered unproven.  It is worth taking a closer look at.

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These appear to be the key references.  I have not had a chance to review them.  But I will:

Charles Hansen.  "The Ancestry of William and Ann (Bagley) Brinton: Quaker Immigrants to Pennsylvania" in  The American Genealogist, vol. 71 (January 1996): 36-48.

Neil D. Thompson. "Hugh Harry, Quaker Immigrant to Pennsylvania: His Purported Royal Descent", in The American Genealogist, vol. 69 (1994): 95-97. 

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The Bagley connection is very interesting.  As you probably know, Col Hansen breaks the line in his article, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence both ways.  I want to give this some time and thought as to the proper way to present this WikItree.

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Joe thank you for breaking the bogus Bagley line! I appreciate it.

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I think there may be people still trying to hold onto it by arguing about the phrase nepoti ex matre, which Hanson says proves John Bagley married a sister of Elizabeth Tomlinson and not her daughter.  I personally agree with Hanson, and even if you allow some doubt about his translation, at best the line is still unlikely and unproven.

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Hello cousin Heather.

Answer 13

For completeness I think John Lightfoot-92 and his brother Philip Lightfoot-255 have a line in the latest Richardson books, which I haven't seen.

Comments

Is there an Edward III descent?  It is not in wikitree, which shows the earliest common ancestor at King John.

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Best I'm getting is that Aske-59 is Mary not Jane and is the daughter of Aske-60.

But her ?niece Jane Jones seems to be making trouble.

Answer 14

Hello! The relationship finder says that Edward is my 20th great Grandfather but I do not see any of my family  on the list. I have not looked into this until I saw the post, so not surprising I do not recognize any names.

Comments

So running the relationship finder on you, I get:

10. Jonathon is the son of Elizabeth (Bliss) Wilmarth [unknown confidence] 
11. Elizabeth is the daughter of Dorothy (Wheatley) Bliss [unknownconfidence] 
12. Dorothy is the daughter of Mary (Fiennes) Fiens [unknown confidence] 
13. Mary is the daughter of Gregory Fiennes [confident] 
14. Gregory is the son of Thomas Fiennes [unknown confidence] 
15. Thomas is the son of Thomas Fiennes [unknown confidence] 
16. Thomas is the son of Thomas Fiennes KB [unknown confidence] 
17. Thomas is the son of Alice (Fitzhugh) Fiennes [unknown confidence] 
18. Alice is the daughter of Alice (Neville) FitzHugh [unknown confidence] 
19. Alice is the daughter of Richard (Neville) de Neville KG [unknown confidence] 
20. Richard I is the son of Joan (Beaufort) de Neville LG [confident] 
21. Joan is the daughter of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 
22. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

There is almost certainly a problem at the immigrant generation, but we will check it out.

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Mary Fienes  appears to be bogus; see this note about her in the profile of Dorothy (Wheatley) Bliss

Disputed Mother

Hannibal Wheatley's 1902 Genealogy of the Wheatley Family states, without documentation, that Dorothy's father Frank Wheatleigh married "Mary Fienes granddaughter of Lord Dacre, who was executed in 1541." This appears to be the basis of the undocumented supposition that Mary was the daughter of "George Gregory" Fiennes. There appears to be no evidence that Frank Wheatleigh even had a wife named Mary, so Mary Fiennes may never have existed.

IMO, Mary Fiennes should be disconnected from everyone, and have the "doubtful existence" badge applied to her.

Here's the book with the unsourced claim: Genealogy of the Wheatley or Wheatleigh family.

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I also connect to this tree (which is why I was up on Mary Fienes!) and I believe my connection is a second bogus connection: it's via Martha Bliss, daughter of Thomas Bliss, married to Nicholas Ide.

However, while Thomas Bliss described Nicholas Ide as his "son in law,"  this evidently meant stepson, one of the usages of "in-law" at the time. Thomas had married Nicholas' mother, "widow Ide."  Nicholas later sued for a child's share of Thomas's estate, which he could have done as a stepson, but not as a son-in-law.  Further, Nicholas' wife Martha was living at the time Thomas wrote his will -- but Thomas never refers to her in any way.

Discussion here:

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/surnames.ide/120/mb.ashx
https://www.ancestry.com/boards/surnames.ide/120.1/mb.ashx

Jacob is the son of Jacob Ide [confident]
10. Jacob is the son of Nicholas Ide [confident]
11. Nicholas is the son of Martha (Bliss) Ide [unknown confidence]
12. Martha is the daughter of Dorothy (Wheatley) Bliss [unknown confidence]
13. Dorothy is the daughter of Mary (Fiennes) Fiens [unknown confidence]

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I had cause to look at the book in which the Mary Fienes claim was made. I don't think that she is the only person who may not have existed in that book including her husband.  I was able to find a verifiable fact in it .(and unless my search skills were poorer than usual then  there are some definite falsehoods)

 It was very unlikely that a Wheatley or Whately owned the manor of Maiden Newton in Dorset.(Hutchins has quite a detailed list of owners of the various manors in that parish) but he might have missed someone. The place that the family was supposed to have come from Tingsboro doesn't exist outside the US. (so hard to say if they lived there)None of the wills were in abstracts of Somerset wills ;though these aren't comprehensive. The destruction of the records in the Exeter archives means that one cannot disprove them.

I couldn't find them in the visitations of Somerset (the family  are supposed to be there) A will in the PCC couldn't be found. None of the various clergy who were supposed to have gone to Magdalen, Oxford were found in alumni oxonienses

There was supposed to have been a vicar of Gatley Hampshire, there is no Gately and he wasn't vicar of Yately  Another Wheatley  was supposed to be a Rector of Upper Clatford also  in Hampshire (I think it was  1664) The list of Rectors for that parish is fairly complete on the CCED and the rector at the time wasn't a Wheatley.  His children  were supposed to have been baptised there (all the dates  are given in the book) but strangely  they don't appear in a transcription of the register.

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Regarding Mary Fiennes, according to a curated site at Geni, someone mentioned that Mary Fiennes was indeed the daughter of Sir George Gregory Finnes and Lady Anne Saxeville, she is allegedly mentioned in the "College of Heralds." Has anyone verified this?

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Al Clemnts, you and I are related through the Simon Crosby lineage.

Answer 15

I connect through George Reade apparently. I have done much to confirm each link in the chain.

Answer 16

Knox seems to be my connection to almost any famous, important, or royal type person! I do not see any of these names on the list of gateway ancestors.

 

1. Kristina is the daughter of Martha Eva (Henry) Voorhees [confident] 
2. Martha is the daughter of John Harrison Henry [confident] 
3. John is the son of William Harrison Henry [unknown confidence] 
4. William is the son of Harrison Henry [unknown confidence] 
5. Harrison is the son of Nancy Knox [unknown confidence] 
6. Nancy is the daughter of Benjamin Knox [unknown confidence] 
7. Benjamin is the son of John Absalom Knox [unknown confidence] 
8. John is the son of John A Knox [unknown confidence] 
9. John is the son of William Knox [unknown confidence] 
10. William is the son of William Knox [unknown confidence] 
11. William is the son of William Knox [unknown confidence] 
12. William is the son of Marcus Knox [unknown confidence] 
13. Marcus is the son of Margaret (Maxwell) Knox [unknown confidence] 
14. Margaret is the daughter of George Maxwell [unknown confidence] 
15. George is the son of Agnes (Stewart) Maxwell [unknown confidence] 
16. Agnes is the daughter of James Stewart [unknown confidence] 
17. James is the son of Joan (Beaufort) Stewart [unknown confidence] 
18. Joan is the daughter of John Beaufort KG [unknown confidence] 
19. John is the son of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 
20. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

This trail tells us that Edward III is the 18th great grandfather of Kristina.

 

Comments

This line is so jumbled I am having a hard time figuring out where to begin (typical of Scottish pedigrees).

But trying to come down from the top. George Maxwell who married Marion Cunningham was not a son of Agnes Stewart and John Stewart as shown.  It's the wrong Agnes Stewart.  She should be Agnes Stewart, daughter of Sir Alexander Stewart of Garlies (CP VIII:591-592).

Coming up from the bottom.  I do not believe the ancestry of the Immigrant John Knox is actually known.  He has been assigned assumed parents without actual evidence.

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That seems reasonable to me, no one in the family ever thought of a royal connection!

Is the project aimed at getting this all figured out and correct the wrong lines on WikiTree?

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You and I are 17th cousins.

Answer 17

1. Daniel is the son of Iver McKay [uncertain] 
2. Iver is the son of Duncan McKay [unknown confidence] 
3. Duncan is the son of Duncan M'Kie [unknown confidence] 
4. Duncan is the son of Patrick Mckie [unknown confidence] 
5. Patrick is the son of Patrick James McKie [unknown confidence] 
6. Patrick is the son of James McKie [unknown confidence] 
7. James is the son of Katherine Agnew [unknown confidence] 
8. Katherine is the daughter of Patrick Agnew [unknown confidence] 
9. Patrick is the son of Andrew Agnew [unknown confidence] 
10. Andrew is the son of Katherine Gordon [unknown confidence] 
11. Katherine is the daughter of Robert Gordon [unknown confidence] 
12. Robert is the son of John Gordon [unknown confidence] 
13. John is the son of Joan Janet Stewart [unknown confidence] 
14. Joan is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) Stewart [unknown confidence] 
15. Joan is the daughter of John Beaufort KG [unknown confidence] 
16. John is the son of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 
17. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

This trail tells us that Edward III is the 15th great grandfather of Daniel.

Comments

Restating this line just so I can have the links:

1. Iver is the son of Duncan McKay [unknown confidence] 
2. Duncan is the son of Duncan M'Kie [unknown confidence] 
3. Duncan is the son of Patrick Mckie [unknown confidence] 
4. Patrick is the son of Patrick James McKie [unknown confidence] 
5. Patrick is the son of James McKie [unknown confidence] 
6. James is the son of Katherine Agnew [unknown confidence] 
7. Katherine is the daughter of Patrick Agnew [unknown confidence] 
8. Patrick is the son of Andrew Agnew [unknown confidence] 
9. Andrew is the son of Katherine Gordon [unknown confidence] 
10. Katherine is the daughter of Robert Gordon [unknown confidence] 
11. Robert is the son of John Gordon [unknown confidence] 
12. John is the son of Joan Janet Stewart [unknown confidence] 
13. Joan is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) Stewart [unknown confidence] 
14. Joan is the daughter of John Beaufort KG [unknown confidence] 
15. John is the son of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 
16. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

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The entire early portion of this line is undocumented and is likely incorrect.  Do you have any evidence that connects the immigrant ancestor back to Scotland?

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Well harsh thing is I would like if someone could help find documents because all the information was from a family bible that Do esnt exist anymore. My great grandmother had other documents, mostly handwritten as well, the roof fell in during a rainstorm and destroyed it all.

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well I can tell you are related to me as Glasscock is a surname of mine I will run just make sure!

here is my ;Line and I know it's good! it's all sourced!

1. Beth is the daughter of Steve Glasscock [unknown confidence]
2. Steve is the son of [private mother] [confident]
3. [Private] is the daughter of Lorene McCoy [confident]
4. Lorene is the daughter of William Edgar McCoy [confident]
5. William is the son of William McCoy [confident]
6. William is the son of Wiliam Fleming McCoy [unknown confidence]
7. Wiliam is the son of Samuel Adam (McKay) McCoy [unknown confidence]
8. Samuel is the son of Daniel McKay [unknown confidence]
9. Daniel is the son of Iver McKay [uncertain]
10. Iver is the son of Mary (Macgregor) McKay [unknown confidence]
11. Mary is the daughter of Catherine (Campbell) MacGregor [unknown confidence]
12. Catherine is the daughter of Beatrix Campbell [unknown confidence]
13. Beatrix is the daughter of Archibald Campbell of Torrie [unknown confidence]
14. Archibald is the son of Beatrice Campbell [unknown confidence]
15. Beatrice is the daughter of Jane (Campbell) Mackintosh [unknown confidence]
16. Jean is the daughter of Archibald (Campbell) fourth Earl of Argyll [unknown confidence]
<!-- it's not the last -->
This trail tells us that Archibald is the 14th great grandfather of Beth.

1. Dave is the son of Myrna Marie Rigg
2. Myrna is the daughter of Albert Marshall Rigg
3. Albert is the son of Charles Thomas Rigg [confident]
4. Charles is the son of Robert Rigg [confident]
5. Robert is the son of Rachel Beauchamp [unknown confidence]
6. Rachel is the daughter of [private mother] [unknown confidence]
7. [Private] is the daughter of Susannah Woods [confident]
8. Susannah is the daughter of Michael Woods II [unknown confidence]
9. Michael is the son of Mary Margaret (Campbell) Woods [unknown confidence]
10. Mary is the daughter of James Campbell [uncertain]
11. Sir James Of Auchinbrek is the son of Archibald Campbell [unknown confidence]
12. Archibald III is the son of Archibald Campbell [unknown confidence]
13. Archibald is the son of Archibald Campbell [unknown confidence]
14. Archibald is the son of Colin Campbell [unknown confidence]
15. Colin is the son of Archibald (Campbell) fourth Earl of Argyll [unknown confidence]
<!-- it's the last -->

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Beth a family bible is still a kind of evidence that can be cited but did anyone transcribe it before it was destroyed?

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In the Glasscock line:

8. Samuel Adam (McKay) McCoy  Why did his surname spelling change? Can you add sources from the linked Ancestry page?
9. Daniel McKay Emigrant, born Kintyre (now called Tarbert), Argyll and Bute, Scotland, no parish. Uncertain parents
10. Iver McKay Emigrant, born Kilmory, Bute, Scotland, Unsourced.
11. Mary (Macgregor) McKay Born Argyll, unsourced.
12. Catherine (Campbell) MacGregor - profile could be improved, she died in Balquhidder, Perthshire, m. to Ian Og (John) MacGregor the clan chief of Glencarnoch, Balquhidder, Perthshire.

10 & 11 are completely unsourced, and I'd argue you need better sources for all 5 people. 

Probably 11 and 12 are not connected, it's odd Catherine and Ian popped over to Argyll to have their da. Mary; its possible her parents sources have some information about her husband. 

FYI: we've also been dinged before that Scottish wives generally didn't take their husbands last names until very recently. So it should be Mary MacGregor and Catherine Cambell.

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In the McKay (M'Kie) line:

3. Duncan M'Kie - his son was born in Bute but he was born in Minnigaff "Kirkcudbrightshire", which is a historic part of Galloway, far away from Bute. Unsourced, I would split the line here as well; going backwards they might appear in a Scottish source.

13. Joan Janet Stewart probably has the details for two people; Joan Stewart Countess of Morton, who m. James Douglas,1st Earl of Morton and had 4 children and Janet Stewart, someone with different parents who married William Gordon. I'm going to update her profile and disconnect the Gordon(s).

 

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It has been proposed for a while on the Edward III descent table, but if we disconnect here then do we know who to connect her to?

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The table should be updated - Stewart-1869 and Stewart-1199 were merged already and I've eliminated Janet (maybe they should have stayed separate?) The Scots Peerage has no mention of William Gordon and its usually pretty reliable - Joan Stewart does have kind of a missing chunk of time from 1451-57 where she was in France but not married yet, plenty of time to marry and have a child. However, the prob. is that William Gordon was not a good match for her - he wasn't a titled noble, and he didn't get a title out of the marriage. I'll keep looking.

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The House of Gordon v. 2 has no mention of William Gordon's wife but does mention his grandson Alexander m. a da. of " the Earl of Cassillis" with a da. Jane whom I assume was David Kennedy, 1st Earl of Cassillis. But it was his sister Janet (c.1480–c.1544) according to Scots Peerage v.2. It gets weird at this point - we have them having a da. named Jean matching the House of Gordon but Douglas seems to imply they never were actually married or consummated the marriage; she supposedly m. Archibald Douglas but she was never described as the Countess of Angus; the DNB describes her as his mistress. She was famously the mistress of King James IV and he settled Darnaway Castle on her as long as he remained unmarried; they had a son James Stewart, 1st Earl of Moray. 

Douglas covers the Gordon's of Lochinvar under the article about their descendants the Viscounts of Kenmure. For William Douglas says his wife's name was unknown & in his version of the Janet Kennedy story above, Alexander Gordon and Janet Kennedy had a da. and heiress named Janet who m. (1) Lachlan Mackintosh of Dunachtan and (2) James Ogilvy of Cardell, with her lands being discharged to her half-brother Sir Robert of Glen (not in WT). 

Answer 18

Hi, I maybe a little contused about the purpose/requirements of this project .According to relationship finder, Edward III is my 19th great grandfather..i do not recognize anyone from the gateway list?.My vision isn't the best and my computer is dead so I am working on a cell phone. Please help.

 

Thanks, Michael

Comments

I'd say the purpose is 

1. Confirm for people well-documented and well-proven lines.
2. Identify and correct problem areas in wikitree
3. Prove previously unrecognized gateway ancestors.
4. Create a list of proven gateway ancestors as a tool for future research.

The line I get for you Michael is:

 Michael is the son of Will Dan Joslin [confident] 
2. Dan is the son of Daniel C. Joslin [confident] 
...
8. Benjamin is the son of Benjamin Wallingford [unknown confidence] 
9. Benjamin is the son of Benjamin Franklin Wallingford [unknown confidence] 
10. Benjamin is the son of Sarah (Travers) Mash [confident] 
11. Sarah is the daughter of Bridgett (Fitts) Window [confident] 
12. Bridget is the daughter of Walter Abraham Fitts [unknown confidence] 
13. Abraham is the son of John Fitz III [unknown confidence] 
14. John is the son of Mary (Sydenham) Fitz [unknown confidence] 
15. Mary is the daughter of John Sydenham MP [unknown confidence] 
16. John is the son of Elizabeth (Touchet) Sydenham [unknown confidence] 
17. Elizabeth is the daughter of Humphrey (Tuchet) Audley [unknown confidence] 
18. Humphrey is the son of Eleanor (Holand) Touchet [unknown confidence] 
19. Eleanor is the daughter of Constance (York) le Despencer LG [confident] 
20. Constance is the daughter of Edmund (Plantagenet) of Langley KG [confident] 
21. Edmund is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

 

I haven't fully researched it yet but there is likely a problem at the immigrant ancestor. (The Fitts section).  I will let you know though there a bunch of these I need to check out now.

 

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Not sure about Walter Abraham FItts, but the respelling of his last name along with a middle name are warning signs; he almost certainly wasn't the legitimate son of Sir John Fitz.

Summarizing this blog post about his da. Mary, Sir John Fitz (Fitz-23) was the son and heir of John Fitz MP, he m. Bridget Courtney the da. of William Courtney, de jure 3rd Earl of Devon not Gertrude Courtney. He killed Nicholas Slanning of Bickleigh, fled to France until his father-in-law secured a pardon. Apparently a violent drunk, he terrorized the neighboring town of Tavistock for a number of years. En route to London to answer for his behavior he killed an inkeeper and wounded his wife, then committed suicide. 

His da. and heiress was Mary, who m. 4 times: (1) to her ward Henry Percy, 9th Earl of Northumberland's brother Sir Allen Percy (d. 1613), (2) eloped with Thomas Darcy who d. shortly after the wedding, (3) Sir Charles Howard, 4th son of the 1st Earl of Suffolk (d. 1626) and (4) Sir Richard Grenvlle (1600-1658) 1s. Sir Richard and 1da. Elizabeth).

I think John Fitz III (Fitz-11) needs his generational qualifier removed and his parents removed unless there's an objection; I've already updated Sir Fitz (Fitz-23)'s parents. I think this is a better route than a merge because it's seems more than coincidental that both of them married a Courtney, and Fitzford Hall was the family home for a few generations; this seems like another case of 2nd cousins with the same name and rapid decline in family wealth leading to confusion. Also Tavistock was a hotbed of Puritanism so it makes sense a poor Fitz cousin emigrated to Massachusetts.

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Joe, Thank you for your comment, I am a newt and can't say that I understand it all. It sounds like there are errors in this line but I really don't know how to correct it,  

Thanks

 

Michael

Answer 19

Dave Martin wrote above:  

and if you don't like that line use my 4th great grandmothers line!

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Plantagenet-70&person2_name=Beauchamp-1979

Copied here to make easier to research and comment on:

3. Susannah is the daughter of Michael Woods II [unknown confidence] 
4. Michael is the son of Michael Marion Woods Sr [unknown confidence] 
5. Michael is the son of John Andrew Woods [unknown confidence] 
6. John is the son of Isabella Bruce [unknown confidence] 
7. Isabella is the daughter of Patrick Bruce [unknown confidence] 
8. Patrick is the son of William Bruce [unknown confidence] 
9. William is the son of Janet (Livingston) Bruce [unknown confidence] 
10. Janet is the daughter of Agnes (Douglas) Livingston [unknown confidence] 
11. Agnes is the daughter of John Douglas [unknown confidence] 
12. John is the son of Joan Janet Stewart [unknown confidence] 
13. Joan is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) Stewart [unknown confidence] 
14. Joan is the daughter of John Beaufort KG [unknown confidence] 
15. John is the son of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 
16. John is the son of Edward (Plantagenet) of England [confident] 

Answer 20

Hi Joe,  This has been a fascinating thread!  For grins and giggles, I ran a relationship finder on Edward's son, John of Gaunt (Plantagenet) and had another positive hit through a completely different family line.  I share it below.  Any confirmation or finding of questionable information is appreciated.  No hurry as it appears you are being bombarded!  

7. Nathaniel Plummer is the son of Jesse Pearson [unknown confidence] 
8. Jesse is the son of Sarah Danford [unknown confidence] 
9. Sarah is the daughter of Joseph Danford [unknown confidence] 
10. Joseph is the son of William Danford [unknown confidence] 
11. William is the son of Mary (Wilson) Danforth [unknown confidence] 
12. Mary is the daughter of Elizabeth (Mansfield) Wilson [unknown confidence] 
13. Elizabeth is the daughter of John Mansfield Esq, MP [confident] 
14. John is the son of Anne (Eure) Mansfield [confident] 
15. Anne is the daughter of Ralph (Eure) de Eure [unknown confidence] 
16. Ralph is the son of William Eure [unknown confidence] 
17. William is the son of Ralph Eure [unknown confidence] 
18. Ralph is the son of William Eure [unknown confidence] 
19. William is the son of Eleanore (Greystoke) Eure [unknown confidence] 
20. Eleanore is the daughter of Elizabeth (Ferrers) Greystoke [uncertain] 
21. Elizabeth is the daughter of Joan (Beaufort) de Neville LG [unknown confidence] 
22. Joan is the daughter of John (Plantagenet) of Gaunt KG [unknown confidence] 

Comments

Can't speak to the American end, but the English end looks good.

Elizabeth Mansfield has loads of ancestry.  She seems to have been adopted by an extra daughter, but that's not your line.

Eleanor Greystoke has an Uncertain flag, citing an old book with an old Eure pedigree that makes her Ralph Greystoke's daughter.  Seems unlikely.  A fix on her age would help.  Ralph's wife died in 1413.

https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=RA1-PA18

https://books.google.com/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=RA1-PA130

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It is a shame we can not return a connection to uncertain, or at least to something more neutral between the options we have.

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Richardson accepts Eleanore Greystoke as the daughter of John Greystoke and Elizabeth Ferrers.  SGM also accepts it without question on many posts.

I agree that Elizabeth, Anne and John Mansfield belong on the list.