Does anyone have solid documentation of Ingram-2956 ancestry (i.e., parents)?

+3 votes
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Samuel Ingram / Elizabeth McDonald is a very common claim on genealogy websites for parents of Samuel John Ingram (1819-1885).  I have strong doubts, however - for one thing, Ingram / McDonald appear in some very serious ancestry studies and I see no indication in those of Samuel John.  Claims in favor of Samuel/Elizabeth often indicate Elizabeth is buried in Abbieville, Alabama, but these other references I mentioned indicate that she's buried in Kentucky.

I'm concerned that the primary reason Samuel / Elizabeth is favored here is because that connection quickly connects to John Ingram / Jane Coker, the original early Ingram immigrant to America in the 1600s.  I'm more interested in accuracy than status, so I'd like for us to get this right.
WikiTree profile: Samuel Ingram
in Genealogy Help by Samuel Ingram G2G Rookie (220 points)

2 Answers

+1 vote

 All Results

Samuel Ingram

 in the Virginia, Compiled Marriages, 1660-1800

Virginia, Compiled Marriages, 1660-1800No Image
Text-only collection

      Name: Samuel Ingram
      Spouse: Elizabeth Mcdonald
      Marriage Date: 9 Dec 1785
      Marriage Location: Montgomery County, Virginia

      Source Information

      Dodd, Jordan. Virginia, Compiled Marriages, 1660-1800 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 1997.

      Original data: Dodd, Jordan, comp.. Virginia Marriages to 1800. Electronic transcription of marriage records held by the individual counties in Virginia.

       

       All Results

      Elizabeth Ingram

       in the U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970

      VIEWU.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970

          Name: Elizabeth Ingram
          [Elizabeth McDonald] 
          Birth Date: 1768
          Death Date: 1871
          SAR Membership: 44969
          Role: Ancestor
          Application Date: 5 Jul 1927
          Father: Joseph McDonald
          Mother: Elizabeth McDonald
          Spouse: Samuel Ingram
          Children: Samuel Ingram

          Source Citation

          Volume: 225

          Source Information

          Ancestry.com. U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2011.

          Original data: Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970. Louisville, Kentucky: National Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. Microfilm, 508 rolls.

          image

          National Society, Sons of the American Revolution

           

          by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (529k points)
          Hi Eddie.  Thanks for the feedback.  Just to clarify, I'm not questioning that Elizabeth McDonald was married to Samuel Ingram (1759-1801).  That seems clear.  I'm also not questioning whether they had a child Samuel (Samuel J., for James, in fact).  Both of these pieces of information are documented here:

          http://nealsgenealogy.awardspace.info/ingramsd.htm

          But that reference gives birth and death dates for Samuel James as 1797-1871, not 1819-1885.  That's the core of my problem - Samuel (1819-1885) does not seem to be the right Samuel Ingram to be the child of Samuel and Elizabeth.  Samuel and Elizabeth's son married Ann Worland and gave rise to a line of Kentucky Ingrams.  The Samuel I'm interested in (1819-1885) was born in Georgia, married Susan Adeline Crawford, gave rise to a line of Alabama Ingrams (my line) and died in Mississippi.

          I've also considered Thomas Benjamin Ingram (1781-1853) and Sarah Petway Hunnicutt (uncertain - 1853) as possible parents for my Samuel (1819-1885), but that runs into certain difficulties as well.

          I'm at an impasse on this one, and would really like to find a nice "Ah!" piece of evidence that makes it all clear.

          Best regards,

          Kip
          +1 vote

          Samuel ~

          I'm aware the 1830 and 1840 census records don't give up much info.  But if you are certain of your Samuel's wife, birth and marriage place and time.  Then this Samuel could be his father.  But if Elizabeth McDonald's husband died in 1801, then he isn't that Samuel. 

          Also, in the 1840 census, there is a John Ingram listed next door.  He is the same age as your Samuel but he appears to already have a wife and kids.  Could he be a brother of your Samuel?

          This is far from conclusive, but the dates and location are good matches.

          1840 census: "United States Census, 1840," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHBF-BJT : 24 August 2015), Samuel Ingram, DeKalb, Georgia, United States; citing p. 52, NARA microfilm publication M704, (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.), roll 40; FHL microfilm 7,043.

          1830 census: "United States Census, 1830," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XHGL-KQX : 18 August 2015), Samuel Ingram, DeKalb, Georgia, United States; citing 68, NARA microfilm publication M19, (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.), roll 17; FHL microfilm 7,037.

          Just to add, I did see the surnames Little, Culpepper and McDonald in the 1830 census.  

           

          Marriage record: "Georgia, County Marriages, 1785-1950," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KXV8-3DP : 22 December 2016), Samuel Ingram and Susannah A. Crawford, 23 Nov 1842; citing Marriage, De Kalb, Georgia, United States, county courthouses, Georgia; FHL microfilm 365,269.

          by Mary Cole G2G6 Pilot (101k points)
          edited by Mary Cole
          Is it possible that Susan A. (Crawford) Ingram died later in Texas.  I see their daughter ended up in Texas.

          Find a Grave Memorial?: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=150031068

          The name Samuel ? is at the bottom of the grave marker.

          Sorry, I forgot this 1880 census.  The reason I posted the FAG Memorial.

          "United States Census, 1880," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M4GS-JRW : 11 August 2016), S A Ingram in household of Sam Ingram, Beat 4, Chickasaw, Mississippi, United States; citing enumeration district ED 34, sheet 331D, NARA microfilm publication T9 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.), roll 0643; FHL microfilm 1,254,643.

           

          Yes, I believe that is Samuel 1819-1885.  I don't know that they made it to Texas, but it's possible they lived there for a while before being buried in Mississippi.

          I did find an interesting tidbit today.  If you search the 1850 census for Elizabeth Ingram born between 1760 and 1780 in Virginia, you get two hits., and one is an 80-year old (so born c. 1770) Elizabeth Ingram living in the home of her son William, who's 59 at the time.  This page:

          http://nealsgenealogy.awardspace.info/ingramsd.htm

          claims that Samuel and Elizabeth had a son William born in 1789.  William is listed as 59 on the 1850 census.  Not quite right, but how many 80 year old Elizabeth Ingrams born in Virginia with a son William would there have been?  They were living in Alabama at the time of the census.  So that is pretty compelling and seems to completely refute the other claims by the link above that Elizabeth remarried a Springer (I also searched for elderly Elizabeth Springers in 1850, 1860, and 1870, with zero results).

          None of this gets me any closer to parents of Samuel 1819-1885, though.  It's just interesting.
          Samuel ~

          I think my interpretation of those records needs clarifying.

          The Samuel in the 1840 census is about 70 years old.  So I believe him a candidate for your Samuel's father.  Not necessarily Elizabeth McDonald's husband, but a different Samuel perhaps (since the other supposedly died, 1801).  They only name the head of household in 1840 census.  Your Samuel (1819-1885) may be in his household just before he married Susanah A. Crawford in Dekalb.

          As for the grave stone, Susanah Ingram may have left Mississippi after Samuel died.  She may have gone to Texas to be near her daughter.  His name on the grave stone doesn't necessarily mean he is buried there.  His name could have been included to indicate that she was his wife (there were do dates for him).  I saw no death record for her.  Perhaps you are aware of one and the grave stone isn't her's.  Their other FAG mem. had no gravestone or records.  That info could have come from anywhere.  It does happen sometimes.

          I hope this makes sense.

          Good luck in your research!
          I've changed tactics, and am now proceeding based only on what I *know* without having a target in mind at all.  My Samuel's family was extremely well defined in the 1860 Coosa County census (including nine children from age 1 to age 17).  I'm even dropping the idea that he "is" the Samuel (1819-1885) I had been assuming.

          I seem unable to find that household at all in 1850 or 1870.  Obviously I'm adjusting the expected children given that they weren't born yet in 1850 or may have left home in 1870.  But zip - no hits whatsoever.  And that's with a wide-open search; I'm searching only based on name and a bracket of years around birth date.  I do see Samuel's son Samuel pop up with his own household in 1870, but I'd already found that one because he's on my direct line back.
          Sometimes it's good to do that.  When things aren't adding up, go back to what you know and start fresh.  

          When I first started doing genealogy, not long ago, I would see all these names, places, dates etc. on peoples trees and think, wow these people must have inside knowledge.  Like a family bible, diary etc.  I would just take it at face value.  Even though I'd spent much time searching records and had never seen those names, places and dates.  I soon realized what a mistake that was.  So I started over.  Some of that info turned out to be true, but much of it was fiction.  I like gathering tangible credible sources.
          What I'm severely tempted to do here is write a program that scrapes all Ingrams from the census data from 1850 onward, with complete family structures preserved, and then sort the whole thing out.  It really does look like people have created their trees with no real evidence whatsoever, and without even conforming to the census records.  Those 1850s onward records are powerful.
          Do you remember the place and any names on the censuses you once found for him?  If so, I can do some searching.
          I found them in 1850, and likely also in 1870.  For some reason "Susan" in the 1860 census showed up as "Sarah" in the 1850, and son Samuel was switched to Solomon in 1850.  But there is a Faraby / Fereby, and a George of the right age, and a David of the right age.  So it's clearly them.

          In 1850 Samuel stated that he was born in North Carolina.  In 1860 he said Georgia, but I'm betting that the census worker asked him "where he was from before" or something like that, and he'd been in Georgia.

          In 1850 the family was in Randolph County Georgia.
          I attached the 1850, 1860 and 1880 census records to his profile from FamilySearch with links.

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