Should Mortimer-605 and Braose-8 have a son John?

+1 vote


On the Parliamentary Roll, c. 1312, there is ... 

1) Sire Rog'r de Mortimer (Mortimer-77)

... and ...

2) Sire Rog'r de Mortimer le oncle (Mortimer-153)

On the Stirling Roll, c. 1304, there is ...

1) Sir Roger Mortimer (same coat of arms as "le oncle")

... and ...

2) A John, his brother.

On the St George's Roll, c. 1285, there appears to be ...

1) Roger Mortimer-605, father (recently dead)


2) Roger Mortimer-153, son


3) William Mortimer-606, son


4) And a John de Mortimer, with the same coat of arms as the first Roger.


In, or about, 1285, this could possibly be the father's brother (don't know anything about him, including death date), or the grandson John who died about 1284 in a tournament. 

We have Roger Mortimer-77 with a brother John, that dies in 1284, two decades before the Siege of Stirling. 

We have Roger Mortimer-81 with a brother John, but they're both born too late, and John dies young.

We have Roger Mortimer-605 with a brother John, that wouldn't be prancing around in battles, in his 80s and 90s. 

John seems to be a popular name, with these generations of Mortimers. Roger Mortimer-153 is the only Roger in generations missing a brother John. 

There is a, or multiple, John de Mortimers running around in the late 13th and early 14th century, but I'm not seeing anything that definitively connects any of them, as a son of Roger Mortimer-81 and brother of Roger Mortimer-153.


WikiTree profile: Roger III de Mortimer
in Genealogy Help by Jason Clark G2G3 (3.8k points)
retagged by Keith Hathaway

2 Answers

0 votes

Further down the Parliamentary Roll, c. 1312, a John that can't possibly be any of the ones we've got, using basically the same coat of arms as the "son frere" John, c. 1304, appears ...

3) Sire Joh'n de Mortymer


Another Roger, that is neither Earl Roger nor "le oncle" Roger.

4) Sir Rog' de Mortymer

And a Henry, that has changed colours ... 

5) Sire Henri de Mortymer

by Jason Clark G2G3 (3.8k points)

John Mortimer c.1312 is the same as John ‘son frere’ fl. 1304. 

Roger Mortimer with the lion is presumably the son of Roger Mortimer of Chirk. 

Henry Mortimer is of Chelmarsh (c.1258-1316), and son of Hugh Mortimer of Chelmarsh, younger son of Ralph, ie. Mortimer-807

Hope that helps to clear stuff up! 

0 votes

Yes Roger Mortimer and Maud de Braose certainly should have a son John Mortimer. The evidence is pretty clear cut: 

The seal of ‘Sir John Mortimer, Lord of Llanbiliou’ survives on a charter dated 1298 at Pencelli in Brecon (a castle then belonging to Roger Mortimer of Chirk); this shows that Sir John Mortimer bore the arms of Wigmore differenced by a saltire gules on the inescutcheon. The same arms appear in later rolls associated with the name John Mortimer, particularly the Galloway Roll (1300), the Stirling Roll (1304) and the Parliamentary Roll (1312). In the Stirling Roll John Mortimer’s arms appear immediately after those of Roger Mortimer of Chirk and they are annotated ‘his brother’.

Source: Dr Ian Mortimer, Outline Lineage of the Medieval Mortimer family; p.16. Link

by David Mortimer G2G6 Mach 1 (11.7k points)

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