Help with possible Latin in an English parish record from the 17th C?

+3 votes

Anyone familiar with the use of Latin in a parish record from Ilkeston, Derbyshire?

My "take" on the situation is that the priest used the Latin form for the name, Elliot, which is "Hellott" or "Hellot."  This page on the Derbyshire Parish Register, Marriages at Ilkeston seems to agree, "The early entries are in Latin."

Problem is there apparently were two women named Ellen whose marriages were recorded at Ilkeston. 

One was Ellen Elliot ("Elena Hellott in Latin) who married on 22 Jul 1604 to Richard Harvey ("Richardus Harvie" in Latin).  This one is reported by Jacobus in TAG 47:77-79 as "Elena Hellott ["Elliott"]" (and then by Anderson as "Ellen (Elliot) Harvey" in one feature and "Ellen (Hellot) Harvey" in another - Anderson cites Jacobus in both instances).

There apparently was also an Ellen ? ("Horsley" in Latin) who married a John Elliot ("Hellot" in Latin).  This one is reported by Stephen Flinders in Ilkeston Families of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries Court.

It seems that the two are confounded in WikiTree as an Ellen Horsley with two marriages, 1) to John Hellot and 2) to Richard Elliot.

One profile is for Ellen Elliot and the other is for Ellen Horsley.  They are currently set as unmerged matches.

Anyone have access to either the Ilkeston record or the book by Flinders?  I'm wondering what evidence Flinders is using and exactly what he has to say about Ellen and her marriage(s)?  

Who was Ellen Horsley (if she was not identical to Ellen Elliot?)  What would the Latin name, Horsley, be in English?

Thank you in advance for any and all viewpoints, questions, readings of sources ...


WikiTree profile: Ellen Harvey
asked in Genealogy Help by Cynthia B G2G6 Pilot (125k points)
They didn't put the surnames into Latin. The vanishing H- is more to do with English at the time and whether H was pronounced. Horsley is an English surname in any case meaning 'horse meadow'.

Matthew, this was a hint.

Looked up Horsley, Derbyshire, and there is one only 6.6 miles from Ilkeston!  Maybe the record refers to Ellen from Horsley.  Thank you!

3 Answers

+4 votes
In the Derbyshire Parish Registers (copy of Phillimore's transcriptions) you have linked to above there is a marriage on page 3. for "Joannes Hellot [i.e. Elliot] et Ellena Hellot 26. Jan. 1593"  Given the arrangement of dates, this looks like it would be 1593/94.

In FreeReg it has the same marriage but this time it transcribes the names as Joannes Elliott and Ellena Hellot and the date 26 Jan 1594.

Not sure if this is the same John Elliott that Flinders states married a Ellen Horsley.

If you search FreeREG for marriages in Ilkeston, Derbyshire, with the surname Horsley, there are only 3 and no Ellen or Helen.

These are only transcriptions, which is a problem, but I couldn't see that the Ilkeston registers were available anywhere online.
answered by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (329k points)
Thank you, John.  This is helpful.  So, we question the evidence for the Ellen "Horsley."

We still do not know whether the identical Ellen married both John Elliot and Richard Harvey - or not. (Pages 3-4 of Phillimore, Vol 7 have been added as source to profiles).  Note: both Anderson and Jacobus were certainly aware of the Ilkeston Parish Register, but neither mention an earlier marriage for Ellen.
If the baptism date for one Ellen in 1583 is correct then you wouldn't think she would be married at the age of 10?

Perhaps they are cousins with the same name?
+4 votes

Since the letter E represented a TH sound (see the url above) and the scribe is writing phonetically, I can see why he would change the E to an HE so that it is not sounded as a leading TH.

Spelling was very inconsistent back then.  Families sometimes changed their surnames when too many people in their village started to have the same one... in an effort to differentiate the cousins from one another.
answered by Laura Bozzay G2G6 Pilot (492k points)
Wow!  This is a great link.  Thank you, Laura.  So ... maybe only the first names were in Latin, just as Matthew suggested (above).
+4 votes
Could do with some burials.  The Harvie-Hellot marriage could have been a 2nd marriage for both, because a Richard Harvie of Denby married at Horsley in 1601 (page 64).  Denby is about 2 miles from Horsley.
answered by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot (444k points)
edited by RJ Horace

I know ... births and burials would be great.  They must exist (per the article by Jacobus in 1960), just not online.

The birth date given for Ellen Horsley is before 1575.  If she is the identical Ellen who married Richard Harvey, he is assumed to have been baptized in 1582 (7 years older, not impossible), and their youngest was born in 1615 (when she was 40, again not impossible).

Just wish I knew where the name "Horsley" came from (only reference seems to be the profile and Stephen Flinders).

Related questions

0 votes
1 answer
0 votes
1 answer
+1 vote
1 answer
+3 votes
1 answer
+3 votes
1 answer
+5 votes
0 answers
46 views asked Aug 25, 2015 in Genealogy Help by anonymous
+5 votes
1 answer

WikiTree  ~  About  ~  Help Help  ~  Search Person Search  ~  Surname:

disclaimer - terms - copyright