how old did a Welshman need to be in the 1300s to (1) witness a charter (2) be "granted the fee of..."

Question

Hi! I'm trying to figure out a good estimate for a birth year based on "living" dates.

I found the sources of the dates given (by Bartrum) for Tomkin Turberville & his father.

Tomkin (l. 1345) [Bartrum] was "granted the fee of Newton Nottage . . . in 1345" [this book, p 436].  Does that mean he was at least 21? Or could he have been as young as 14?

Hamon (l. 1329) [Bartrum] "witnessed a charter in 1329" [this book, p 436]... I have a colonial Virginia ancestor who witnessed a will when still in his minority (under 21). I'm wondering at what age someone could be a witness in Wales in 1329?

Thanks!

P.S. Mansel/Maunsell tags included because Elizabeth Turberville married Richard Maunsell (b 1375), and part of the need to figure out the dates for Tomkin & Hamon is because sources don't agree on Elizabeth's parentage.

Comments

Our Royal, Titled, Noble Ancestors gives a birth date of 1329.

 

1. [S11583] The Wallop Family and Their Ancestry, by Vernon James Watney, p., 779.

Tomkin Turberville1

M, #91929, b. circa 1329

Father	Hamon Turberville1 d. a 1329
Mother	Agnes1

     Tomkin Turberville married Lucy (Gwenllian) Norris, daughter of Sir John Norris.1 Tomkin Turberville was born circa 1329 at of Tregantllo, Merthyr Mawr, Glamorganshire, Wales, England.1,2

Family	Lucy (Gwenllian) Norris
Child	Gilbert Turberville+1 d. a 1429

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Have you seen this ?  Glamorgan pedigrees

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3093704/3093712/52/cardiff%20police%20courts/bates

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https://archive.org/details/annalsantiquitie01nichuoft

Annals and antiquities of the counties and county families of Wales; containing a record of all ranks of the gentry ... with many ancient pedigrees and memorials of old and extinct families

by Nicholas, Thomas, 1820-1879

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Thanks Eddie! I had not seen the Glamorgan pedigrees - http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3093704/3093712/52/cardiff%20police%20courts/bates where I found this family: “WILCOCK Turberville was 2d son of Sir Richard, and brother of Sir Payn Turberville of Coyty, by Agnes, d. of Sir Roger Wilcock of co. Hereford. . . . They had IX. HAMON . . . married Agnes, dau of Tompkin of co. Hereford. They had 1 Tompkin. 2, Elizabeth, though her precise place in the pedigree is doubtful”

The Lewis entry I had found. I posted about it on Elizabeth's profile, in part:

The citation for Lewis's entry for Elizabeth is The Wallop Family and Their Ancestry, by Vernon James Watney, p., 779. - I think that's one of those that falls into the mostly fiction category. 

I have not found that source online anywhere to see what sources it cites. Let me know If it is a respected source - I tried to find my notes about it earlier (when I was posting to Elizabeth's profile) & couldn't find where I'd gotten the impression that it wasn't reliable.

Thanks again!

P.S. Still don't know at what age a Welshman could witness a charter or be granted a fee. Of interest from the Glamorgan pedigrees: "In 1429, Gwenllian Norris had the fees of Newton-Nottage and of Penlline. Possibly, on the dying out of the male line, Lucy Norris became an heiress." [Lucy/Gwenliian Norris is said to have been Tomkin's wife/mother of his four children.]

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pps - that last ps can't be talking about the daughter of Norris said to have married Tomkin - neither "1429" nor "1329" (if a century typo) works with the dates currently shown for her (1357-1381).

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Welsh tribal law and custom

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/econ/ugcm/3ll3/ellis/WelshTribalLaw01.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjE2bOazubTAhUrzIMKHWHPApA4ChAWCDIwCA&usg=AFQjCNHAo0usIAa5s9tdBaE3_fe3T6JtYA&sig2=TA0a8Mh0SFr3zGK-q3pXzw

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couldn't find this family/this generation (Hamon, son Tomkin) in Annals and antiquities of the counties and county families of Wales

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THANKS so Much for the Tribal Law link! I'll be searching it after dinner.

Cheers, Liz

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Laws of Hywel Dda

https://archive.org/search.php?query=Laws%20of%20Hywel%20Dda

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dinner had to wait... page 383: up to age 14, a boy could own no property except through his father or guardian. From 7-14, he was "competent to take an oath but not give evidence", so I'm thinking the answer to both be a witness & be granted "the fee of" would be 14.

Thanks again!

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I'm terrible sorry you be starving Miss Liz. FOOD is the most important reason I wake up lol.

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lol - I could probably do with a couple of missed meals, but nope, no starving going on here :D