Denmark Project Ready to Begin Building Categories

+10 votes
296 views

The categorization guidelines proposed for the Denmark Project have progressed through the comment period and are now ready to be used.

You can reach them from several places:

a) directly at Space:Denmark_Categorisation (I know the s should be a z, but the page had already been created and URL's cannot be changed after they are created.)

b) from our official Denmark Project page 

c) from our Denmark Project Categorization Subproject page, and

d) from our subproject workspace and instruction page

That means that we are ready for all those who have expressed interest in the project to begin the volunteer work of creating location categories. You do not have to be experienced at creating categories, knowledgeable about Denmark, or able to read Danish to volunteer and to help get the important high level categories created because we have a plan and detailed instructions.

You will find the workspace and instructions page at Space:Denmark_Project_Categorization_Subproject

Right now we have lists and detailed instructions for creating categories for 

1) the amter (counties) during the period from 1970-2006

2) the amter (counties) during the period from 1793-1970

3) the amter (counties) during the period from 1662-1793

These are the level of categories just below the country level Category:Danmark.  They need to be created before we create the categories for the municipalities and the herreder which need to be created before we start working on the very important sogne categories.

There are only 90 categories to be created in these 3 lists and 3 have already been created.  If we divide that between all those who expressed an interest, we can have the categories of this level created within a month and be ready to highlight our project on a weekly news feed.

If you have not already requested your project badge, please go to our official project page and follow the instructions there to get your badge.

If you have any questions, please message me.  My profile is Brandt-1372.

Meanwhile, I am going to be creating the five current region categories and working on instructions for the next level -- the municipalities and herreder.

WikiTree profile: Space:Project_Denmark
asked in Requests for Project Volunteers by Mary Jensen G2G6 Mach 6 (68.9k points)
You could create a space page with the correct spelling and then get someone to redirect the incorrect spelling to the correct one.
Actually, s is correct if you are in Europe and the leader who created the page was.  I just highjacked it and put our text there afterwards.

4 Answers

+3 votes

Nice work some comments

  1. Space:Denmark_Categorisation
    1. When you have examples make it a link
      1. e.g. Category:Ringkobing,_Denmark
    2. I shouldn't for parishes have a English version....
      in Sweden we have right now Swedish parishes and its the Swedish name with county letter to make it unique

      To find something in the church books you use the Swedish name.....
       
    3. At least in Wikipedia Sweden the parishes are well documented maybe have a look how they have the categories

      e.g. Rödding

      I have started to add links from a parish category in WikiTree to the Wikipedia page describing the parish in the Swedish Wikipedia using a template ==> easier to change external links etc....

      see Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:SPC_Gen_Parish

      not using a Template for external links is asking for problems.... last month SOFI changed URL ==> 700 pages was invalid but because using a template it was fixed in 5 minutes.....
      1. The swedish Parish page n WIkipedia has
        1. Coordinates
        2. Good links that I "reuse"
          1. SOFI nameregister
          2. FornFynd map with remainings...
          3. etc....
             
    4. Looks like you have done a magic work with parishes during different timeperiods.... 

      Lesson learned is that its complex and noone does it perfect so I selected a tool that most people use doing Swedish Genealogy Arkiv Digital and copy the structure they had.....

      ==> easy to know what is "correct" or wrong....

      In Sweden a parish is the most stable administrative unit over time BUT parishes belongs to different counties over time. E.g. Götlunda_(T) is also since 1974 Götlunda (U)

      Below the history with dates.....
      1631-1638 Närke-Värmland ==> ?

      1639-1653 Örebro ==> T
      1654-1778 Närke-Värmland ==> ?
      1779-1973 Örebro ==> T
      1974- Västmanland ==> U


      to make it consistent I used a template
      {{Details|Götlunda (U)}} ==>
      1. some text was added
      2. a Category:Disambiguation_pages ==> I can easy find those categories....


         
    5. I created an Infobox that is used on all parish category Pages ==> This Infobox contains
      1. That this category is part of a project
      2. How to ask for help
      3. If you need more info an URL
      4. Also sets different categories. We have a 3 level structure
        1. Whole Sweden
        2. County e.g. Örebro
        3. The parish e.g. Fellingsbro (T) that has a template SPC-T ==> that includes SPC_Header  see edit
      5. See SPC_Header 
        to include this on a page you do {{Space:SPC_Header}} ==> you get the text and some Categories....

        SPC = Swedish Parish categories

        A did a DPC_Header  as a start see test category

        let me know if you should use it and you need some changes or just change it... I think even better is the one used by Family Search see Denmark-sidebar and example usage (its used on +490 pages)

        To use it 

        {{Space:DPC_Header}}

        and you will get the Infobox below on the page
        1. Advantages using a infobox
          1. Alla categories has the same info
          2. Easy for the user to understand what project is part in
          3. Easy later to add good links as when I change in the Swedish project 2500 categories are changed... 

 

answered by C S G2G6 Pilot (268k points)
edited by C S

Magnus, thank you for your comments and help.

1) The links will come in time.  This is the first formal version of the guidelines and most of these example categories are not there yet.  They soon will be as that is one of the things I'm working on. I'll link them as they get created.

2) Denmark will not have an English version for anything below the country level.  We just don't have complete enough sources in English to be able to manage it, and we need the Danish names to find things in nearly all the sources.

3) We did look at Wikipedia categories, but found there were some problems for us.  We are using the lists from the Danish side of Wikipedea for our checklists and spellings of categories levels above the sogn (parish) level and linking the pages that exist to our category pages.  Unfortunately, on the English side, the Wikipedia structure is far from complete.

Even on the Danish side, Wikipedia does a very poor job of disambiguation for Denmark. For example, there are numerous towns and several sogne in Denmark named Lyngby.  They don't have any of these towns in their ambiguous place names for Denmark.  They do have Lyngbygårde in their ambiguous places but they disambiguate it as Lyngbygård (Lyngby Sogn). That is no help as there are several sogne named Lyngby. I could not even find any list of ambiguous sogne names on Wikipedia for Denmark like the Swedish side has for socken.  The Danish side of Wikipedia is pretty good  for the Danish parishes, but it is no where near as well developed as the Swedish parishes.  The Family Search wikis for Danish parishes were even worse - incomplete and full of errors. So we are stuck with compiling our information on Danish parishes from multiple sources to get a complete picture. I don't want to bash Wikipedia too hard though, as its Danish side, while basic, is much better than most other sources in the information it provides.

I would love to use templates for the external useful links especially for Wikipedia, but so far none of our members have the skills to create them.  I will be studying what you have done for Sweden with an eye toward adapting it for our category pages and our detailed instructions for specific groups of categories that will make it easier for our volunteers to create our category pages with a uniform look and important information. That is part of why so far we only have instructions for the amter pages from the three periods that used them.

4.  Yes it is complicated. I started out looking for at least a source with a complete list of parishes we could follow and which could be used to disambiguate those with the same or very similar names. Unfortunately, the genealogical tools commonly used for Denmark are not consistent and many of them are incomplete, especially at the parish level. So we had to look at other ways to make it easier for volunteers to create all but the most problematical categories.  We settled on Danish Wikipedia lists for all but the parish level. The Danish side of Wikipedia incorporates something similar to our historical structure through both its categories and the format of the pages and links. See https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Sogne_i_Danmark

Unfortunately, the complete lists only exist on the Danish side and we need to provide similar information in English on our category pages since we have a high percentage of project members whose Danish does not go beyond basic genealogical Danish. So just providing links to the Danish Wikipedia pages for each sogn is not a solution.

Our primary means at this point of making it easier for our volunteers is detailed instructions for specific groups of categories using some preexisting templates and boxes because we don't have the skills to create our own templates and boxes. I could use some help in modifying the top level template for the Denmark Project so it points to the specific guidelines for Danish categories.  I've found the template page, but there is no way to edit it so I can't see what the code looks like.

I am working on creating a spreadsheet for our volunteers to use at the sogn (parish) level which is pulling together information from a number of sources to create a complete list of sogne, identify the ones needing disambiguation and provide the proper category name for each sogn. It includes other information to be used in creating the category page for each sogn as well. I think I saw one for the Sweden parish subproject too. Anyway, I think it will be a good fit for using with a template or box of some sort if I can figure out how to do it.

5.  Thank you.  I did some playing around with the info box you created and it gave me some ideas.  I asked on the categorization google group this past weekend if there was a way to modify the top level template to point it a specific country's category guidelines.  Your info box helped.  Now all I need to do is find the top level code to see how to combine the two to get what we want. There is no edit link on the template page so I cannot look at the code. Can you help with that?

For right now, our high level category pages are fairly simple.  They will have an appropriate map of the divisions helping to identify where the category is located, a brief description of that particular part of the structure, what it was previously part of, what it later became part of and what lower divisions were included within it. I will work on the info box you created and get it to the point where we can use it on all our categories to include some standard information and adding it to our instructions.

Again thank you for all the suggestions of things I haven't learned how to do yet.

 

As Swedish have counties I did a 3 level hierarchy that I think is good for Sweden

Sample of how parish page Category:Frostviken (Z) is generated
using
Space pages
SPC-Z county page
that includes
SPC_Header common header
 

Big Pic

 

 


Big Pic how templates are used with external sources 
I've been looking at some of these.  I thought the sources available for Denmark were good.  The ones available for Sweden are even better.

I made a list of those I found in one of your pages to see what I can find in Denmark as I write instructions or create free space pages to help in building the sogn categories (and the herreds and municipalities)

I think our pages are going to wind up being somewhat more simplified than Sweden's. But I'm learning a lot from what you have provided.

I work a lot putting people into the Swedish parish categories. They are most useful as a research tool, for connecting families and getting new ideas what to look for.

But I strongly disagree with Magnus' way of putting a big project box and a lot of links directly on the category pages. The project box should be small and neat - and all those links should be on a freespace page linked off the category page, in my opinion. I have told Magnus this at an early stage - he just seems to have agreed that we disagree.

I agree with you Eva I just say its an user interface design. Problem is to have a dialogue with Chris or some developer inside WikiTree...

Check how Aleš has created his search page http://wikitree.sdms.si it can expand/hide parts

Or check how standard WIkiTree handle TOC it can be expanded/collapse for long TOC see profile Le_Maistre-5 




 

Profile Le_Maistre-5 I guess its 5 minutes development if someone on the developer side think this is important. I have more or less given up my focus is now to get the Swedish National Archive and the people doing SBL to understand how cool Wikidata and the semantic web is see blog sbl-wikidata

I tested another concept on Father unknown.... 

As the system with categories works today, I must fully agree with Eva, I want to get to the profiles in the parish. A very short explanation perhaps, and a few links to free-space-pages is enough.

For example, I'm still not understanding the category "Det gamla bondesamhället" and what should be categorized under that category. To me it seems it should be a free-space-page. Many other categories exists that I don't understand why the category is useful to group people, like gathering all profiles, from year 0 to present,  who died of a certain illness. Would it not be better with a free-space-page with explanations of the illnesses? Why do we need to gather the profiles under a specific illness?

But I will learn more about categories and categorization after the summer is over and I have the time to read up on it.

I think we need to have a Google Hangout and share screens and discuss this...

A Space page and Category page is the same same to 98% with just some different layout....

  1. Categorisation is a way to add structure ==> you tell that this person 
    1. Is born in parish xxx
    2. This person was a priest in a parish xxxx
    3. or what ever you would like 
  2. A space page 
    1. Is a page where you can write about things

 

  1. Added to a profile
    1. Category: are shown at the top of a profile (I like that)
    2. Space page 
      1. Is either just a link [[Space:DM]]
      2. Or include to whole Space page {{Space:DM}}
      3. Nothing is displayed at the top of a profile
  2. Displaying
    1. Category
      1. Has an easy way to build a hierarchy and you get at the top the parents and at the bottom the children
    2. Space page
      1. You will not display who is linking to it but you can easy get that information using Special:Whatlinkshere/Space:xxxx its the same with a category you can use WhatLinkshere but the difference is that on a category all members of this query are displayed at the bottom of the page....  
      2. In a space page (I guess also in a category) you can use extra tags to say this part should displayed when you look at a page and this part is just when included
        1. That is done for Space:Riddarholmskyrkan 
          1. All people are just shown when you look at the page. When you include {{Space:Riddarholmskyrkan}} you just get a small picture of the church and a link.....

Is Categories good or bad

  1. Bad for adding structure and old fashioned but that is what Wikitree has 
    1. It lacks a good query language ==> you cant create maps of people born in different parishes being priests or filter on interesting parameters...
    2. Over at Wikipedia they have solved this by creating Wikidata
  2. Ok to use to explain different words concepts like Inhyse ==> if WIkiTree move to a modern platform we already have the structure ==> it easier.... I have done that at Wikipedia for Swedish parishes that now can be seen on a map

>> For example, I'm still not understanding the category "Det gamla bondesamhället" and what should be categorized under that category.

Just use it and we will see what is good or bad. I started with internet and did my first web 1995 then my problem was noone had internet ;-) I would never have guessed how it will be used in the future.... Adding structure I am convinced of is cool.... see how I now add structure to SBL records ==> we can find museums with paintings of artists described in SBL in 1920 or what people in SBL are buried on Norra begravningsplatsen and have a Spotify Artist ID....

  1. Yesterday I helped a Texas lady with a famous Swede that says to be the one starting immigration of Swedish people to Texas Svensson-2862 his father was Rusthållare so then I added a link to that category 
    1. His father Israelsson-72 was also mentioned Hemmansägare ==> I added Category:Hemmansägare so she can read more about that.... 

      I like that a category is displayed at the top of a page and if you would like to do a link you just add a : 
      1. [[Category:Hemmansägare]]
        Category at the top of a profile
         
      2. [[:Category:Hemmansägare]]
        will be link to the category
         
      3. [[:Category:Hemmansägare|magnus was here again]]
        will be link to the category with the text magnus was here again

         
  2. To your Pettersson-593 I added Category:Fader_okänd my thought is
    1. Gather Fader okänd
    2. Add good research sources like the radio show Släktband
    3. Maybe "barnmorskeböcker will be indexed" then we could easy find all Fader Okänd 

Things will change see a Wikipedia articles about Boston

DREAM big ;-)
I guess Wikitree in todays form with a Slovenian person doing error checking and reporting 2 107 887 errors this week is not what Chris thought about 2007

"For example, I'm still not understanding the category "Det gamla bondesamhället" and what should be categorized under that category.

Just use it and we will see what is good or bad

Why should I use it if I don't understand why it's useful? Things must be viewed from the perspective of the common user. 

I worked with learning teachers how to use internet when it still was new and they did not understand the meaning of or how to use it. I had to motivate them (find pages about a hobby for instance) before they were willing to learn how to use it. They did not give a *** about what the meaning of http or ssl, that was way above their head, they just needed to learn how to use the basic tool explained as simple as possible. 

 

I may have understood categorisation wrong... but I thought that the purpose was to gather profiles for a purpose (such as research within a parish).  Would it perhaps sometimes be better with a template than a category? 

An example is the "unsourced" template added to profiles. That template provides a link to the help page for sources. A template for   "Hemmansägare" could lead to a free-space-page about occupations listed in Swedish churchbooks. And not everyone can add templates, they must be a WikiTree leader if I understood correctly. That would eliminate duplicates and unnecessary templates as well

I thought new categories was supposed to be discussed before added as a category? Where is that discussion held? (I have not seen Fader Okänd discussed in the Swedish group.)

I there should be such a category, I for one would think it would be more useful to list all the children within a parish with father unknown since the father most probably is located in the same parish or one nearby. 

 

Why should I use it if I don't understand why it's useful? Things must be viewed from the perspective of the common user. 

If you see no usage don't use it...

I normally define things in user cases ==> you explain what you would like to achieve see a draft I did found in Category:SPC_Toolbox

and then you suggest a solution

Example....

User Case A) As an user doing genealogy I would like to learn more about terms used in the church books

Solution A-1: Set up a structure with terms used in the church books and explain them. On the WikiTree profile add the word and connect it to the structure.... Status: Implemented on Category:Det_gamla_bondesamhället 

Solution A-2: ?!?!?! using Space pages....  

User Case B) As an user doing genealogy and have a brick wall I would like to learn more about possibilities

Solution B-1:  

  1. Create categories for
    1. Brickwalls
      1. Solved brickwalls
    2. Research problems like
      1. Father unknown
  2. Create pages with suggestion how to progress
    1. ex. Category:Fader_okänd_Helper

Solution B-2: ???  

    >> I may have understood categorisation wrong... 

    I see them just as a technical solution if they solve the problem that is ok for me... 

    >> was to gather profiles for a purpose (such as research within a parish).  

    I see no problem adding text to a category page if that solve an user case/problem/need

    I dont understand why its important to gather all 13000 people buried at Northern Cemetery in Stockholm to a Category:Norra_Begravningsplatsen_(AB) my user case is 

    User Case Cemetery: As a person doing genealogy I would like to know how to



    Would it perhaps sometimes be better with a template than a category? 

    A template is just another technical solution. It takes parameters and then add text to it. You can do the same thing with a SPace Page e.g.

    Template.FindAGrave has as argument 1 the number of the memorial ==> {{FindAGrave|1350}} generates 
     

    If FindAgrave change location from http://www.findagrave.com to http://www.newfindagrave.com

     

    Then you just change in the template instead of all profiles using it...

     

    I used Space:SPC_Header as a template

    1. Categories are added
      1. [[Category: Parishes, Sweden]]
      2. [[Category:Socknar, Sverige]]
    2. Flag and some text are added
    3. I had an argument. If it was set no categories was added just the flag 
      1. ==>
        {{Space:SPC_Header|N}}

        then no categories was added just see top category

    But are not new categories like Fader okänd supposed to be discussed before added as a category? Where is that discussion held?

    Its never to late.... 
    I guess/hope that Aleš plans to add tools for category maintenance ==> it will be much easier do something useful

    I for one would think it would be more useful to list all the children within a parish with father unknown

    Then that is another user case.

    User Case D: As an user doing genealogy I would like to find all children in a parish with father unknown

    Suggested solution D-1: Best would be to have reports for that so you could combine and ask give me all people in category A and category B see G2G question if Alesš has fixed that....

     

    Or even better give me all people in parish xxx who are  connected in 5 generations with someone who is also on my DNA resultlist at GEDMATCH...

    Examples of a query on categories done in Wikipedia

    In another thread they asked who is famous and have Italien Roots

    Because Wikipedia support queries on categories I could in 5 minutes create a list of 

    lesson learned it would be good if Wikitree get better tools... 

    Magnus said: A Space page and Category page is the same same to 98% with just some different layout....

    I must disagree.  A Space page and a Category page might be created in somewhat the same way in terms of how the software works and the code used, but they are very clearly not the same thing and I seriously doubt that most people think of them the same way.  

    A free space page can and is designed to be used for a great many different purposes. Its a catch all that provides a great deal of flexibility and ways to accommodate all sorts of stuff people want to do or try.

    It may be possible to put a lot of stuff on a Category page but that is not its purpose.  Its purpose is to group together profiles that are connected in some genealogically significant manner. 

    I'm in the camp that expects to see a fairly simple category page with the basic descriptive information needed to use that area of categories effectively.  That will often include some references to other areas of Wikitree (like category guidelines, projects managing the categories, and and maybe a few external links to recognize where the basic information came from. It may include a picture when its helpful to the description like a map. But whatever is there should not distract from quickly seeing the profiles (including the free space pages) categorized under that category.

    >> It may be possible to put a lot of stuff on a Category page but that is not its purpose. 

    What is the purpose of internet? Picture of cats.... ;-) 

    1. categorisation is a poor man way of adding structure... see how Wikimedia has now moved from plain text -> Categories -> Wikidata -> Wikicite  
       
    2. Adding a category for a parish on a profile you get them nice presented at the top of the profile ==> user friendly ==> its a good way to add keywords/concept/historical events to a WikiTree profile
       
    3. But why guess measure what the user are using see below. 
      1. My lesson learned is
        1. Wikitree has some highly skilled people like Eva doing 1600 ==> support needed ?!?!?! maybe group people
           
        2. People not skilled in Swedish genealogy has difficult to take the step to learn it often they get help with the research but it feels difficult to learn doing oit themself. Genealogy takes time ... support needed ?!?!?
          1. Elg-19 
          2. Magnusson-469 
             
        3. We have people like me medium skilled that add people to Wikitree but maybe don't need the links...  
           
        4. !?!?!

    Suggestion: Why guess do a prototype using Space pages and see if it's easy to use.... my feeling is more clicks make less usage.... 

    Lena moved a lot of links from the parish pages to County level 

    If I check the statistics at the bottom of a page we can see not many people follow the link ==> 

    Lesson learned: 

    1. either bad design
      or 
    2. the users don't want links....

    The statistics see Google Docs

    Good or bad?!?!?

    The correct way to design IT solution I think is 

    1. start with User requirements and user stories see a draft I did in the Category:SPC_Toolbox
       
    2. Design a solution
       
    3. Evaluate it  
       
    4. Rework



    For me the user story about parishes is

    1. As an person doing genealogy in Swedish I would like to have an easy way to find sources for the parish I am researching
       
    2. As an person doing genealogy in Swedish I would like to group people for an farm/estate and sometimes also for a parish....
       
    3. SPC-12 As an user doing genealogy in Sweden it would be excellent to access old maps to learn more of how people lived, what traces we can see today of houses, farms.... how the land has changed at different time periods see 
       
    4. SPC-13 As an user doing genealogy in Sweden I would easily get information about available and planned material for my county from the leading vendor Arkiv Digital so I can create a better Research plan
       
    5. SPC-15 As an user doing genealogy in Sweden I would like to find the locations of houses and villages so that I can visit the places and also learn more 
       
    6. ?!?!?!


    >> But whatever is there should not distract from quickly seeing the profiles 

    That is an user interface design issue.... the alternative is that people should click away to another page. I guess the category of Swedish had 12+ levels ==> no one can understand it... 

    Add a small + for seeing more information on the page... see above how Table of Contents is designed when its longer than x nr of rows


    Bic Pic 

     

    +4 votes
    Hello Mary

    http://www.ddd.dda.dk/soeg_person_enkel.asp

     

    Did you look i to get his side about the name of the city

    It is in English too

    I know it can be very difficult to look op places in Denmark because we have places with the same same name

    It is even difficult for Danish people.

    Hope the side will be useful
    answered by Susan Laursen G2G Astronaut (1.4m points)
    edited by Susan Laursen

    Susan,

    I think I looked at that one.  I tried working with several different ones. Settled on http://www.stednavne.info/VisKort/Popupmap.aspx in the guidelines for several reasons:

    1) Its the Danish government site for the official place names committee so it would give us the official names

    2) It has a good search system

    3) It has lots of overlay maps that can be used with it including current ones, historical ones, and current boundaries for the sogne and the current kommuner.  The maps help to make sure you are getting the name for the place you are actually looking for instead of a similar one that is located somewhere else.

    4) It provides more of the information we need to create a category in one place

    5) It seemed to be the largest place name database with the most entries and so was most likely to include all or nearly all of what people would be looking for.

    +2 votes

    I checked in WIkidata and they have something called Parish code for Denmark

    I guess maybe pages/categories can be autogenerated....  ask Aleš

    If I should have redone Swedish parishes and had some support from Chris/Aleš then I should have started from Wikidata and create a structure.... that generated pages in Wikitree... 


    Big pic

    answered by C S G2G6 Pilot (268k points)
    edited by C S

    I checked the DigDag code and feels like a good source for people doing genealogy.

    See Pederstrup Sogn

    Then you have 

    1. information about 
    2. part of and years 
    3. different old maps you can use and zoom in etc.... 

    excellent for genealogy 

     

    Not so fast. I have considered the idea of autogenerating categories (in trying to learn more about coding on Wikitree), but quickly discarded having more problems than a messy GEDCOM import even if there were excellent data sources. Even if it might work in theory, it definitely would not work for Denmark.

    I would guess a lot fewer Wikitree users and project volunteers are familiar with wikidata and how to use it than are familiar with GEDCOM.  I certainly don't have the necessary knowledge.  You are probably in a group of far less than 1/10 of 1% of Wikitree users in terms of what you can do with coding and data. For projects, we need to look at what is doable by the people interested in working on the project and a reasonable learning curve for them.  This concept is way too complex for where we are in the Denmark Project and has possible consequences we as a group are not in position to anticipate. It also has ramifications for categorization in general which should be considered carefully by people very knowledgeable about the quality of the data, the country, and categorization before suggesting experimentation with it for any country or project. Even without that level of knowledge, I see serious problems with it particularly for Denmark.

    There is a serious problem with the quality and completeness of the data. If you look behind the lists to what data is really there, you see the only references to the parish codes are the Danish Wikipedia articles. Those codes have no meaning outside Wikipedia. I've never seen any parish or county codes in any of the many Danish genealogical source I've used. I doubt that even you would recognize a sogn(parish) from one of them. I've seen enough people comment that they wish the county codes had not been used and the names of the counties had been spelled out in the Sweden categories even though the codes are common in Swedish genealogical sources and many genealogist recognize them. Using these wikidata codes would be much worse in Denmark where codes of any kind are not commonly used in sources.

    Much of the data we need on parishes in the respective time periods is missing from Wikidata.  There is no data at all for any period but the current one which did not exist until 2007. There is no amter information or herreder information which is needed to properly categorize the parish categories. While there is 2007 and later kommuner data, there is no region data.  So there is not even enough data to properly categorize the sogne category in the most recent of the five time periods.

    Theoretically, the most promising data is the DigDagID which is an identifier from the Digital Atlas of Denmark's historical-administrative geography.  If Wikidata actually pulled in the data from that project, it might theoretically provide valuable information for creating parish categories.  But it does not.  Looking behind the lists, the sogne data have zero references under the DigDagID (and most other data points as well).  It does not pull the historical information we need from DigDag to properly categorize the sogne in the 5 historical periods. When that information is present in Wikipedia, it in the actual articles (not just the wikidata). It is often necessary to follow links to other articles to gather all the information needed to create and properly place a sogn (parish) category in the Denmark location category structure.

    While DigDag is a valuable historical source, it is not as well suited to genealogical research as you seem to think.  Its goal is to compile information about all the many historical administrative divisions in Denmark governmental history. There are many overlapping streams for different government functions. Only one or two streams matter to genealogical research.  This information is in the notes and Overordnede sections where all the overlapping streams are jumbled up together with no labels or fields. That makes it very difficult to identify and pull out the data needed to create and properly categorize parish categories in each of the proper time periods. It is also a much more difficult source for people to pull the information we need from than some of the other sources being used. It will be used when needed as one of the sources feeding into our spreadsheet but it isn't the quality source for data to autogenerate parish categories you seem to think it is.

    I have reviewed many sources looking for one source with all the data we need on all the sogne (parishes) when trying to write easy instructions for volunteers to follow in creating these categories. It just doesn't exist. While Danish Wikipedia worked for all levels but the parishes, it did not work for them. While Danish Wikipedia articles (not the data) have the most readily usable information on the most parishes for a single source, the total number of parishes is too low to be all of them. Only 6 of the first 10 sogne in my unfinished parish spreadsheet are on the Danish Wikipedia list. That is a significant problem for an autogeneration source. Also, you report only 2821 placenames.  There are many more in DigDag and a great many more in the official place names database we are using than in DigDag. The official place names database also has much better maps and is much easier to use. So we are using it (and other sources) to supplement Danish Wikipedia in collecting information to create the categories for Denmark.  While the official place names database has the current information needed for the existing sogne, it does not have the necessary historical information. We need a combination of Danish wikipedia, DigDag and the official place names database for the information needed to put the sogn (parish) categories in the proper higher level categories

    Most importantly, the purpose of these categories is getting from information we have on a person to related people in all the time periods and to more genealogical information we need. What we usually have is some location information in one of the older time periods, like what sogn a person was baptized in in the mid 1700's. Recent information, especially post 2007, is generally not available because of privacy laws. So the one piece of location data that is present in this wikidata is the piece our researchers are least likely to have. Genealogists categorizing with a sogn almost never have the current municipality.

    Few if any of genealogical sources have the diocese information either. For most of Denmark's history they matter only to organization of the religious institution staff and church administration. There is a very loose connection between the old Catholic dioceses and the sysler, but that was before the period covered by the Denmark Project.  The dioceses have not been part of the governmental record keeping structure since the Reformation, which is why it is not part of the Denmark location category structure like the sogne are.

    As slow and laborious as it may be, the Denmark parish categories need a good deal of human review and oversight in their creation, not autogeneration.This discussion has strayed pretty far from the original post about a set of simple instructions and a category structure and guidelines that are ready for any volunteers of the Denmark Project with basic Wikitree skills to use to start creating functional category pages for our higher level location categories. I think it ramifications are of interest to and should be considered by a wider group of people interested in categorization generally, policy and style, and tech issues. I encourage you to move the discussion to a new thread with those tags.

    Mary let me know if you have time to have a Google web hangout....  as you say this gets complex fast..... 

    1. Pederstrup Sogn
      1. Wikipedia article danish
        1. Pederstrup_Sogn_(Viborg_Kommune)
        2. Stift Viborg Stift
        3. Provsti Viborg Østre Provsti
        4. Pastorat Rødding-Løvel-Pederstrup Pastorat
        5. Kirke(r) Pederstrup Kirke
        6. Kommune (før 2007) Tjele Kommune
        7. Kommune (2007-) Viborg Kommune
        8. Sogneportalen sogn.dk
          1. Fakta om Sognet
            1. Sognekod 8568

            2. Pastorat: Rødding-Løvel-Pederstrup Pastorat

            3. Kommune Viborg Kommune (791)

            4. Region Region Midtjylland

              1. Hjemside  http://roddingkirke.dk

              2. Facebook 

        9. J.P. Trap Kongeriget Danmark Pederstrup Sogn (Viborg Kommune) 
        10. Categories
          1. Nørlyng Herred
            1. Kategori:Sogne_i_Viborg_Amt
      2. Wikidata record Q3520394
        1. part of Viborgs stift, Danmark
        2. country Denmark
        3. located in the administrative territorial entity Viborg Municipality
        4. coordinate location 56°32'46.000"N, 9°31'27.001"E
          1. Google map
        5. Danish parish code 8568
        6. DigDag ID 114405 
          1. Koder
            1. KB DK5198520061111,112,37(85)
            2. IM sogn - 20101970 -
              1. 8568 This is the same code you found on Wikidata P2290
            3. DigDag sogn 1214
              1. DigDag about "sogn"
                1. Number of "sognar"
                  1. 1660 - 1829
                  2. 1800 - 1835
                  3. 1920 - 1923
                  4. 2012 - 2201
              2. DigDag about "Enhetstyper"
            4. KMS nr.1954750900
              1. I guess Kort & Matrikelstyrelsen Danish Geodata agency
            5. NATMUS top nr.19111743
              1. I guess National Museum of Denmark
            6. NATMUS st nr.1967130809
            7. NFI områdenr.19111743
              1. I guess National Forest Inventory (NFI)
            8. AO sogn 7534

    >>I would guess a lot fewer Wikitree users and project volunteers are familiar with wikidata

    Its easier if you tell what you want I guess I can do a query and find the data you want.... I think the map is easiest for user to navigate with.... 

    No one needs to understand Wikidata we can extract a list. I and Aleš has connected +35 000 profiles from WikiTree to Wikidata and I guess most people doesn't understand the concept but we hope it will be useful for finding more information (example using Wikidata to find WikiTree people query finding WikiTree people connection to Denmark in Wikipedia)..... 

    Let me know if we should have a web hangout.... I guess ts the fastest way forward..... after looking into this it feels more complex than Sweden...

    >> So the one piece of location data that is present in this wikidata is the piece our researchers are least likely to have. 

    In Sweden the parish is a stable unit and its therefore used for genealogy etc... If you check DigDag.dk - sogn they say the same except for the cities "købstæderne"

    • "Trods sognenes lange levetid har deres geografiske udstrækning – relativt set – været stabil. Dette gælder dog ikke sogneudviklingen i købstæderne, som i takt med befolkningstilvæksten øgede antallet af sogne"

    >> Only 6 of the first 10 sogne in my unfinished parish spreadsheet are on the Danish Wikipedia list.

    Its better you give examples maybe my search was wrong.....

    Looking behind the lists, the sogne data have zero references under the DigDagID (and most other data points as well).

    This reference is a reference to the source i.e. if you add a birth date then you can in the references say that this was stated in source xxx 

    >> Also, you report only 2821 placenames.

    I reported just the place names for records with a parish code, Dont think all locations are in Wikidata see whatlinkshere

    Infobox Danish Parishes Family Search
    Also have a check on the Template they created at Family Search 

    {| style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent;"
    |-
    | <pre>{{Infobox Danish Parishes
    | Stift = 
    | Pastorat = 
    | Amt 1662 - 1793 = 
    | Amt 1794 - 1970 = 
    | Herred = 
    | Kommune = 
    | Landskabsnavne =
    | 1788 – 1793 Lægd number =
    | 1794 – 1869 Lægd number =
    | 1870 – Udskrivningskred / Lægd  number =
    | Retskreds =
    | Skifteretten =
    | Gods =
    }}

    Its used on +2200 parish pages see link, source

    Infobox Skabelon:Infoboks_sogn

    Danish Wikipedia used on +2900 pages see link
    
    
     

    Categories as navigation help vs. Navigational Infoboxes

    Lesson learned is that categories in a standard Wiki is not good for navigation of complex structures. In the Swedish project we had/have + 12 levels....

    One solution is combining categories with Navigational infoboxes/templates

    Example: template:Sogne_i_Viborg_Stift used on abt. 250 pages
    (code that I think some part can be reused on WIkItree)

    The template expanded. Default is compressed something we should also support i Wikitree. Below +240 sogne... something much more difficult to understand using standard category navigation...

    Big pic

    Lesson learned from SPC

    1. If you can reuse do it
      1. I created templates with "nearly" the same name as in WIkipedia ==> fast copy/paste
      2. Best would be to "clean" in WIkidata and then export and autocreate in Wikitree
    2. Having a common "tool" that says what is correct ==> you dont have to invent the wheel again.

      The SPC project are lucky that Arkiv Digital changed its citation format to be the same as we use as category names... makes life easier if you have the tool Arkiv Digital 
    +1 vote
    Mary - I just want to say thank you for your energy that you put into making things clearer and more easily catagorized.  I want to offer help with this, but find I'm barely able to understand what is being discussed as is, that I am WAAAY back on the learning curve within the info on this site.  And I imagine I am hardly the only one.  So...let me PLEASE offer kuddos and for you (and all the others) to know that every step you make to simplify this nfo brings the rest of us closer to being able to contribute (but not just yet).
    answered by Lynn Sexton G2G Crew (840 points)

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