Using Ancestry.com as a source or better just a tool....

Question

I have found loads of info at Ancestry, but of course, I'm checking to see how to transfer that info into Wikitree.  As i suspected, the opinions are from one end of the spectrum to the other.  And those opinions all have merit and are reasonable for the most part.  So, barring any true conflicts, i would like to use Ancestry as a source, or more directly, just download those documents and upload them to this site.  As other members have pointed out, links always, invariably, over time become useless, ie "error 404, page not found".  Any useful input would be greatly appreciated as I am still very new to all if this.  I realize after typing all of this that some if not all the photos are likely copyrighted.  However, using the documents information, such as U.S. Census, 1930, line 4 blah, blah, that these could be called into question as well as info cited with a dead link.  Kind of chasing my own tail here as i do not personally own a verified copy of any official documents other than my own.

Comments

I'm seeing a lot of ancestry.com links on profiles and my biggest complaints are:

1. Not everyone has access to ancestry.com so for me, thats not a reliable source. 

2, links like  http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/AMTCitationRedir.aspx?tid=27251848&pid=60  are dead links. 

 

And welcome to Welcome to Wikitree, where we try to do genealogy right. 

 

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Thank you Lynette,

I have come across so many profiles that have either just    “ancestry.com”   or the entire link of the source on ancestry, which as you stated, unless you pay and subscribe to a membership there, you have zero access to the sources.

I find this is unfair and makes things difficult for anyone who needs to confirm the source of the person.

There also seems to be a lot of confusion about using LNAB for married women.  

Am I ok to politely and kindly ask profile managers to use LNAB, as well as to perhaps copy and paste their sources? Or is there something better that you would recommend?

Thank you again for your time,

Elaine James

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I ran into a similar situation a few years ago researching passport applications.  I had an email conversation with NARA and here's a copy of the last message.

From: Rose Buchanan rose.buchanan@nara.gov Subject: Re: National Archives Reference Request Date: March 7, 2017 at 7:45 AM To: Robert Haviland

Dear Mr. Haviland, Thank you for your question. You are correct in that images from Ancestry.com (including images of NARA's records) cannot be reused or uploaded to other websites as per Ancestry's terms of service. While the physical records in NARA's custody are government records and therefore generally in the public domain, Ancestry provides the staff and equipment to digitize many of our records of genealogical value (such as passport applications). As per NARA's partnership agreement with Ancestry, Ancestry therefore retains temporary rights to these digital images. After an embargo period of five years, these images will be added to NARA's online catalog, where they can be downloaded and used freely. Since NARA offers free access to Ancestry.com and other partner organization sites at each of our research facilities nationwide, researchers can view digital copies of NARA's records when they are physically present in our facilities. Since we at NARA understand that not all researchers have the ability to travel to our facilities, however, we sent you the same images of Ms. Petersen's passport application that you would have been able to view free of charge had you visited one of our facilities. That being said, we should have clarified in our original email that the images that we sent are for your personal and private use only. We apologize for any confusion our original response may have caused. If you want to use the images that we sent or others that you access on Ancestry's site, you will need to contact Ancestry's staff directly and inquire about their terms and restrictions of use. Contact information for Ancestry's staff can be found on their website at: https://www.ancestry.com/corporate/contact-us. Alternately, if you intend to publish or redistribute images of Ms. Petersen's passport application, you may order paper copies or digital scans of the relevant passport application directly from NARA's staff. If you order copies/scans directly from us, there are no restrictions on use. In your publication or website, we simply ask that you credit the copies/scans as coming from the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration so that interested researchers may follow up with us about those or other series of records in our custody. If you would like to order copies/scans through NARA, you may email our Reference staff directly at: archives1reference@nara.gov. In your correspondence, please include the citation information for the passport application(s) that you want and your current mailing address. (Even if you will not receive your order via mail, your current mailing address is necessary for the order to be processed). Once the Reference staff has confirmed this information with you, they should then be able to generate a price quote with ordering instructions. We hope that this information is of assistance to you. Please let us know if you have any further questions. Best, Rose Buchanan

Answer 1

• The things that people object to at Ancestry are the Ancestry "Trees" that are so often inaccurate. Ancestry also have excellent sources that can and should be used where accurate. Those "leafy" things can be misleading.
• Don't bother with the images. Ancestry has citations for their documents. They are not quite as easy to use as the citations at Family Search, but Ancestry has things that Family Search does not, and vice versa.
• Never use the words "Ancestry.com" as a source. It isn't. It's a repository for source material. Use full citations. Document author, Document name, Publication information, page # if applicable. Including the URL can be helpful now, but may break later, which is why it's so important to include the full citation.
• Never just cite a URL, even if it's for a website, for the above mentioned reasons.

Maybe I just rambled. .... Welcome to Wikitree :)

Answer 2

I don't see a lot of point to uploading census images to Wikitree, especially when you can link through Familysearch to the census record and corresponding image--usually.  If you're afraid the census image will disappear, I suppose you could download it, edit it for just the family you're interested in, and upload it. Ancestry *might* own the copyright to some images.  If it was originally produced by the federal government, for example, they don't own the copyright to the image, although they can copyright their index.  Ancestry also doesn't care a heck of a lot about *other* people's copyright, so if an image is posted there, it may offend the actual owner of the copyright. Many decades ago, when I first got into genealogy, my cousin sent me huge sheets of census records she'd photocopied.  When they became widely available online, I recycled all of them.  What do I need a printed copy for when I can access the original via a link?  Of course, if someone fries all our computers some day via EMP, there went all that readily available information.

Comments

Thank you for your insight.  Links usually just fail when you want them in my experience, though usually because the site ran out of money or moved.  Though full system failure would indicate more pressing matters than genealogical links failing....

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I forget exactly which Federal agency I got in contact with (might have been for passport applications on Ancestry.com).  However it was for the question of copyright on Federal documents on private/for pay sites. I was told that even though the image is Federal, the private site / for pay site which digitized the images, has exclusive use of those digitized images for a number of years depending on their agreement with the Feds.  So make sure you read the Terms of Service agreement on those private or for pay sites.

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First, neither Ancestry nor Family Search digitized the census records especially those before 1940 and I'm not real sure about the 1940. 1790 and later were microfilmed by the WPA. I'm not sure about the rest of ya'll, but I learned that in 8th grade history about 1968. I knew my father worked CCC and WPA, so I paid attention.  

2ndly. US Government records cannot be copyrighted.  Even if Ancestry and/or FamilySearch et al, did go into an archive, and made copies of the census, which are microfilmed already, it is not original creative content.  Now what is creative content are the indices, therefore are copyrightable, even tho the indices were created by 1000s of volunteers.  

The US Gov holds census records for privacy for 72 years. But if you need a copy of your portion of your census page prior to that 72 year period, you can obtain a copy for a fee.

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The only time I upload any US Fed Census is when familysearch.org does not have access to view the Census.  As you all know Ancestry.com does not show any source unless you are a paid member. I do have a membership, but I think that is wrong of ancestry, so I copy the US Fed Census to Image, with a link where I got it from, and write in all of the Census information on the profile.

Many times ancestry will show a page out of a book as a source. I copy and search the title on google, and 9 times out of 10, the book can be found on archive.org

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And you can probably find those same books in public domain archives.

But since I make census indices and complete census of the 1790-1840 I don't upload an image until I have completed a page of the census. Space:US_Census_Union_County_Arkansas_Master_Index  If you look at Brown Township in 1850, its only two pages. I have created or found profiles for every on in Brown.

Answer 3

Ancestry.com does have, as you say, loads of information (source documents) but you don't need to download/upload them to WT. You can "transfer" the information by copying and pasting from Ancestry.com to a WT profile (both the data, and its sources (from the citation pages) provided by Ancestry..

Comments

Thank you.