Anyone interested in lines from Olive (Welby) Farwell to 12 M.C. surety barons other than Saher de Quincy

+6 votes
Also lines from Welby-8 to King John (Plantagenet-143) and his marshal Sir William Marshal(Marshal-4) who negotiated with the Barons for  the King.
WikiTree profile: Olive Farwell
in The Tree House by David Hine G2G5 (5.9k points)
retagged by Darlene Athey-Hill
I am descended from her (as long as the middle 5 generations are correct) thusly:  Cantwell, Saunders 4x. Dresser, Hoar x2, Farwell 4x, Olived Welby Farwell 10th great-grandmother.

I am a descendant of 14 of the 17 know MAGNA CARTA BARONS:

25th William d’Aubigny (d’Aubeney, d’Albini) 1150-1236
25th  Roger le Bigod, Knt. 1140-1221
24th Hugh le Bigod 1180-1224
24th Henry de Bohun* 1175-1220
22nd  Richard de Clare, Knt. 1155-1217
24th Gilbert de Clare, Knt. 1180-1230
John Fitz Robert 1191-1241 – 24th GU
26th Robert Fitz Walter* 1167 - 1235

23rd John de Lacy, Knt. (de Lacie)*1192-1240
24th William Malet 1173-1216
23rd William de Mowbray, Knt.
* 1176-1224
24th Saher de Quincy, Knt.* 1150-1219
25th Robert de Ros (de Roos) 1170-1227
25th Geoffrey de Say(e) 1180-1230
25th Robert de Vere, Knt. 1164-1221

as well as 4 of the Non-Surety Supporters:

24th William III d’Aubigny 1175-1221

24th Alan of Galloway 1186-1234

23rd William Marshal, the Elder  1190-1231

23rd  William IV de Warenne 1166-1240

my royal gateway is Anne Derehaugh




Anne Derehaugh is my recently discovered 10th great-grandmother.  I have her, Olive and Thomas Nelson as Gateway Ancestors.
This name is in my famiky tree links
What is a royal gateway
I'm a descendant of gateway ancestor Olive Welby, who's listed as a descendant of baron Robert de Vere on both the Baronial Order of Magna Charta website and the National Society of Magna Charta Dames and Barons website.  However, I cannot find any direct lineage that connects her to Robert de Vere.  Does anyone have any information on this?
I  do not have a line of descent from Robert de Vere via Welby -8.

Oops ... sorry! I thought Kirk's space page I attached above had a Robert de Vere connection, but it doesn't. Per Kirk's 2017 comment below, "Olive is not currently connected to Lanvallei-3, Say-76 or De_Vere-309." WikiTree's Relationship Finder doesn't show a connection either (Welby-Vere are listed as 2nd cousins 12 times removed) see this link

2 Answers

+2 votes
This never got any attention but I've noticed this as well - shouldn't she have the categories for the other lines? Or is she a questionable gateway ancestor in some of those lines?
by Kirk Hess G2G6 Mach 6 (62.9k points)

Summary:adding the Bigod-1/Bigod-2. Clare-673/651. Bohun-7, and Fitz-Walter-101 categories seem uncontroversial to me, but the rest need some research. I've submitted those for review.


Albini-39, she's connected through Matilda (Ros) Welles. I think she's cited in RA, not MCA.

Bigod-1 and Bigod-2, she's connected to them multiple times, specifically through Hawise le Despenser - Welby 8 iv. p.298. Complete.

Bohun-7, Hugh Willoughby's mother Isabel Annesley is uncited; its Willoughby-975 through the Freville to Botetourt-1.

Clare-673, same trail through Isabel in the relationship finder. Update: now that I checked MCA the line is Tyrwhit, starting with her grandmother Tyrwhit-8. Complete.

Fitz-Walter-101, Margaret Freville (Freville 9) is cited on iv. p. 298 & iii. p.232. Complete

Clavering-13, she's connected to John de Neville, not checked in MCA; I also think this is only in RA.

Lacy-284 connects to Matilda (Ros) Welles, I think the same issues as Albini-39.

Huntingfield-11 - See Bulkeley 13 (FYI her reviewed trail), Anne Charlton's husband Randall has a bunch of uncited ancestors. She might connect to someone in the Waterton line (iv. p. 296)

Malet-18 - Also connects through Hawise le Despenser but not in the Welby line. Not checked in MCA

Mowbray-151 - Connects through a Richard Waterton (see Huntingfield-11), not checked in MCA

Quincy-226 - See Bulkeley line & Huntingfield-11.

Ros-162 - also connected through Maud (Ros) Welles  although the relationship finder prefers the Hilton connection through the Sutton (not checked in MCA).

She's not currently connected to Lanvallei-3, Say-76 or De_Vere-309.

I think Richard Waterton's parents are unknown.  Certainly not the ones we've got, and nobody of any interest.

All the Waterton pedigrees out there pre-1400 are garbled.

I always forget the relationship finder is no help with this because the real connections are always longer than the sketchy ones. 

I went through MCA and found her trails to William d'Aubigny Hugh Bigod Roger BigodHenry de Bohun , Gilbert de Clare Richard de ClareRobert FitzWalterJohn de Lacy ,William Malet and Robert de Ros

I forgot to take notes on Clavering-13, there probably was a connection I missed. I'll check again later.

I struck out on Mowbray-151 and Huntingfield-11 - I think the only connection is through the Watertons which as RJ mentioned are kind of a mess.


Clavering-13 was relatively simple - adding the template to Eleanor (Neville) Lumley -> Elizabeth (Lumley) Tyrwhitt.

Here's a Mowbray-151 line that should work:
5. Maude (Tailboys) Tyrwhitt is the daughter of Elizabeth (Heron) Tailboys [confident] 
6. Elizabeth is the daughter of Elizabeth Heron [unknown confidence] 
7. Elizabeth is the daughter of Elizabeth Anne Ogle [unknown confidence] 
8. Elizabeth is the daughter of Matilda (Grey) Ogle [unknown confidence] 
9. Maud is the daughter of Joan (Mowbray) de Grey [unknown confidence] 
10. Joan is the daughter of John (Mowbray) de Mowbray [unknown confidence] 

Its basically Heron -> Tailboys 11 -> Tyrwhitt 12.

I show an old line to Anketil Mallory (1340 - abt. 1393)
Sheriff of lincolnshire.

AndSir John "4th Lord Welles" Welles aka de Welle same time periods
Dear Kirk,

 Welby-8 is connected to Mowbray-151 through Grey-267
+3 votes
Yes, I would like to get more information on your ties to the other Surety Barons.  I am connected to Olive via Joseph-Joseph-Edward-Abel-Hannah (Farwell) Bent-Hannah (Bent) Sylvester-Peter Bent Sylvester-Duane Sylvester-Kathryn (Sylvester) Pool-Gerald Pool-Phyllis (Pool) Steinke- Jay (me).
Dear Jay I would gladly send you my spread sheet, but I don't know where. can you contact me at Hine-437?
Thank you for responding. I can be reached at I also have an eletronic book on the Bent family side that I can also provide if that is helpful.

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