Mother of Tecumseh?

+12 votes
4.5k views
The mother of Tecumseh, well known Shawnee Chief, is said by many biographers to be a Shawnee/Creek woman named Methotaske/Methoatasskee. According to 2nd Chief Ben Barnes, she may have been Shawnee and /or Creek in origin. The one thing she was not was a white woman named Margarite. Can we please remove Ice-67 as the mother of Tecumseh?
WikiTree profile: Tekoomsē Shawnee
in Genealogy Help by Jeanie Roberts G2G6 Pilot (141k points)
The most likely place to find documented descendants of Tecumseh’s family are in the Shawnee tribes.  They are the people whose DNA needs to match yours and you already know that they are documented Shawnee.  Recorded history doesn’t seem to be on your side either as far as documents, but there are some records that might have clues.   Tecumseh’s mother moved mutiple times after her husband died. I would look for everything you can find written on the Prophet during or shortly after his life.  If he had a set of younger siblings they might be mentioned in connection with him while on the reservation in Kansas.
John, I’m also descended from Tecumseh through his sister who married Rupe Collins. It would be interesting to know if our DNA results match up on Ancestry DNA.

Rgds.,

G. Jones
Are you talking about Tecumseh’s sister Tecumpsse 1746-1825? She was my 6X g-grandmother if my genealogy is correct. I know there are also inquiries as to her marriage to Rupe Collins b.1742
What is the source for the marriage to and offspring by Rupe Collins?
No we have not contacted the other Tribes but we will thats a good idea.

We just had 2 elders and myself to do the DNA tests and have people looking over them....

If anyone knows others claiming to be related to Tecumseh or the Profit then maybe they can review our DNA as well.
Well I suppose that would be the same line .... our link is Thomas Andrew Captain (B1850) thru his mom and dad and grandparents. You can review the DNA i have if i can learn how to show the link.

I see my question remains unanswered: 

What is the source for the marriage to and offspring by Rupe Collins?

There is no source because it never happened.  I think it’s one of Don Greene’s inventions.
Yes i have mine at the native project but you can pm me or email johncaptain@hotmail.com and we can do that.. thanks for your help.
Thomas A Captain (Shawnee B1850) was also from Kansas.

I do not know much about how to link all this together but i respect all the hard work you all put into helping tribes.  Thanks

7 Answers

+5 votes
I object to the removal. There are family members who are of direct line to Tecumseh that share DNA in a Gedmatch DNA project with Tecumseh and Ice family members. It shows that Mary Ice is shown the mother of Tecumseh. We have lots of family and family stories, and books. Please look at more than just one book, and the geneology and the DNA.
by
Sorry to pop your bubble and tell you that you are wrong.. But you are wrong.. I am apart of that group and have been for some time.. I'm related to everyone in that group DNA doesn't lie... So you know my grandma didn't grow up with any white relatives. So the white in her was way before her time... And don't you know the Delaware traded the Ices to the Shawnees.. So tell me why William Ices direct Decendents and my grandmother and I match? And the number of generations between one another.. Are u related to the Ices? Have you done DNA?
There are a lot of Ice descendants and I don't doubt that many show up as DNA relatives.  What is not accurate is that there is any connection to Tecumseh.
DNA doesn't lie, but it can mislead.  It's like consulting an accurate but cryptic and mischievous oracle.  It often answers questions other than the one we think we asked, and it usually says a good deal less than we wish it did.  A whole industry of sketchy interpreters surrounds the oracle, profiting from the confusion of the seekers.
With all due respect what do you not understand about me being a direct decendent of Tecumseh and a federally enrolled Absentee Shawnee tribal member.. My line is solid to Tecumseh through Big Jim's line... And I match everybody on the indian Billy Ice page including a direct decendent of his on there. Where do u stand in this situation? What are your credentials? Your proof?

Not sure why I received this:  “I object to the removal. There are family members who are of direct line to Tecumseh that share DNA in a Gedmatch DNA project with Tecumseh and Ice family members. It shows that Mary Ice is shown the mother of Tecumseh. We have lots of family and family stories, and books. Please look at more than just one book, and the geneology and the DNA.”

The above is not my comment, nor anything I would ever have commented.

The reason for my interest is that in our family tree books from the Hickman family state that Mary Ice was taken by Tecumseh's tribe and that she then became the mother of Tecumseh and several other children... and that she then returned to her original family.

I know that I would have no dna matching Tecumseh (I am a descendant of Mary Ice, not Tecumseh)  and have never claimed that. That is not my question.

My question is:

For any person who has had a dna test specifically to see if they are a descendant of Tecumseh and it is positive

Has any one of them ever had their dna tested specifically to see if they were a descendant of Mary Ice? 

Thank you.

"DNA doesn't lie, but it can mislead.  It's like consulting an accurate but cryptic and mischievous oracle.  It often answers questions other than the one we think we asked, and it usually says a good deal less than we wish it did.  A whole industry of sketchy interpreters surrounds the oracle, profiting from the confusion of the seekers."

With your permission, I'm appropriating that, Herb. All due attribution, of course.

It's just too good not to use.  

Tecumseh's parents are well-documented.  Mary Ice was NOT his mother.  Both his parents were Shawnee people who were living in a Shawnee community in what is now Alabama when they met. They moved north to what is now Ohio about 1759.

I'd consider it an honor Edison!  laugh

You would be related to Tecumseh bcuz his mother is Mary Ice..

Methoataaskee was born about 1738. She belonged to the Pekowi, the turtle clan of the Shawnee. Her name may mean "A Turtle Laying Eggs in the Sand" since the long translation of a Shawnee name generally has a reference to the person's clan.

The Shawnee band which she and her husband were part of lived among the Creeks when they were in Alabama.  For her to be anything except Shawnee has been discounted by credible authorities in the Draper, Tecumseh, and Schoolcraft papers as discussed in Sugden's book and other articles.

She was the second wife of Pukeshinwau and the mother of his children. He had no children with his first wife. The couple moved to Ohio with her relatives about 1759 when the Shawnees in Ohio appealed to the Shawnees in Pennsylvania and Alabama for support.

When her husband died in 1774, Methoataaskee lived with her son, Cheeseekau. Some think they  moved to Tennessee in the area of Lookout Mountain where the states of Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia meet. She is believed to have died there sometime after 1793.

Most of the information in this biography was given by her son, Tenskwatawa, in interviews that were written down during his lifetime. The rest is from other written journals, reports, and interviews of people who knew Tecumseh or someone in his immediate birth family. It is compiled in John Sugden's book  Tecumseh: A Life. New York: Holt, 1997.

+5 votes
.....................
by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Pilot (164k points)
edited by Arora Anonymous
.......
+3 votes
commented info was  "not acceptable" to the "experts" so removed by self
by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Pilot (164k points)
edited by Arora Anonymous
I saw this and said what I did not necessarily about Tecumseh. I do not know much from my family as our heritage was lost the border having fallen where it did, it was more advantageous for my mother's family to "pass for white" than remain Métis and so nothing was passed on to my mom, youngest of ten.  I just know that the culture is different and people generally do not understand other cultures without a lot of study and so I feel this is one of the bad things about the genealogy standards - and it is not just First Nations/Native American culture that does not fit neatly into the frame of what people expect - we have seen where language and naming practices of other cultures present difficulties when we try to fit them into the tree - if we all really want it to become a worldwide tree we need to be willing to learn and accept different ways than what we are used to.
Arora, I see no response "by the experts" directed at you or your post. I'm sorry you felt the need to edit out your comments.  They have been helpful.
John, I encourage you to start a new G2g thread dedicated just to your ancestor. It will get better attention.
Thanks will do that

John Have you seen these records? not sure if these are the families you are looking for, but here are some directions within the Quapaw  (Eastern Shawnee Rolls)- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9W8-W5DG?cc=2761958&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQGGG-ZYN3

Thomas A Captain 30 Male 1887 Father 31
Thurman Captain 31 Male 1906 Son 32
Thelma C Captain 32 Female 1907 Daughter 33
John Captain 33 Male 1912 Son 34
Leo Captain 34 Male 1914 Son

There are also other families of "Captain" listed within these rolls, I would suggest you build your wikitree lines going back to where you are "stuck" then  we can see what you have, and how we maybe able to help fill in blanks and we can help you correct anything that may not be accurate. 

Moving this soon ;)
Its not easy to find the documents we seek after all only about 1/3rd of them in the hands of the US Government have ever been viewed. Most I assume they do not want is to read.. one i read yesterday made me cry to think how biological warfare was used to kill people and with no regards for human life... that document said the “Blanket program was doing great” as our people were hungry, lost, and confused who they were dealing with.   Anyways i find it hard to believe any documents are not worth the look and keep the focus on those that search for answers and when you find them you will know in you're heart it mattered.

Now Question .... how do you test DNA from Tecumseh ? How do you have a comparison ? Just a question from my cousin who’s the professor of law for native rights at AZ state

I said “I have no clue how they have that let me go ask”?
Yes John Captain is my grandfather whom died at age 36
I'm a direct decendent from his grandson Big Jim
Direct decendent of Tecumseh. My kids are 7th generation grandkids of his
+4 votes

ok so was going to stay outta this mess, buuuut, since someone chose to make such a rediculous comment as to assume that There was no way Tecumseh could have lighter skin, hair, etc...weelllll, I just can't help myself.  see I don't like mythical made-up info mixed into genealogy at all..BUT nor do i like seeing the ugly "R" showing up in ANY convos...see way I see it, people are people AND the WHOOOLE Purpose of Wikitree is to PROVE how WE ARE ALL RELATED!..& Ones that come from the First Nations, Northern  & & Arctic, as well as ALL North Amercian Nations & Probably South American Nations as well...We all KNO, been taught, been told..."we are all related, we are all relations, we are all ONE"...Its easy to forget this lil tidbit when things get heated over who came from where and who is connected to who..but hey, everybody loves the "heros" right?  Not having answers that are totally in-your-face with pieces of paper attached as proof sure can create major "wars" in genealogy.  but try to remember, everyone wants the answers, sometimes the answers aren't what we hope for, or expect..but getting to the truth, should be what is most important..name calling, accusations, and snide remarks shouldn't enter in to any of it. So here let me add a lil more confusion to this ball of wax, not to mean, snide, or indifferent..but to shed light on some of the genealogical connections that maybe being missed here, that may help give a new direction to investigate from.  You see, this Archival photo & record in canada, mentions this "person" is an ACKNOWLEDGED Descendant not only of a couple of 6 Nations Chiefs, but also of a few others of interest..including...of all ppl...Tecumsah....So before you all blow this one off..maybe research, and dig deeper and then..dig some more before you discard .  just a thought.

Emily Pauline Johnson (Tekahionwake)

Emily Pauline Johnson (Tekahionwake)
Source

Documents in the LAC Collection that trace her life and times.

Born: March 10, 1861

Six Nations of the Grand River, Canada West


Died: March 7, 1913  

Vancouver, British Columbia

Great-grandfather:     Tekahionwake (Jacob Johnson)


Grandfather:    Chief Sakayengwaraton (John “Smoke” Johnson)


Grandmother:    Helen (Nellie) Martin

Father:    Onwanonsyshon (George Henry Martin Johnson)

Mother:    Emily Susanna Howells

Background 

Emily Pauline Johnson was the youngest of four children born to an Englishwoman, named Emily Susanna Howells, and Mohawk Chief Teyonhehkon, a descendant of Hiawatha and Dekanahwideh, the Peacemaker, and other leaders Pontiac and Tecumseh.

Pauline’s family blended and reflected two distinct cultural heritages: one being the customs, traditions, myths, legends and historical accounts of her Mohawk heritage from the Wolf, Bear and Turtle clans, and the other being her mother’s British background.  

The Mohawk were one of six nations represented in the Iroquois Confederacy, governed by a Great Law of Peace and consisting of 50 sachems (chiefs of the ruling council within a Confederacy) chosen by the matriarchs of the Iroquoian societies. Members of these societies refer to themselves as the Haudenosaunee, meaning “People of the Longhouse.” They are linked together by shared languages, cultural heritages and histories. As a member of the League of Six Nations, the Mohawk are known as the Keepers of the Eastern Door and were regarded as leaders of the Confederacy by British Superintendent of Indian Affairs Sir William Johnson.

Chief Tekahionwake, Pauline’s great-grandfather, was the first to be given the English name, Johnson (after Sir William Johnson) at birth. In turn, Sir William Johnson was given the Mohawk name, Waraghiyagey.

Pauline was born at “Chiefswood,” a home her father built for his wife on the reserve land of the Six Nations of the Grand River, a region of forest that stretched from the Great Lakes northward.

A number of distinguished guests came to Chiefswood, such as Princess Louise, Prince Arthur and Lord Dufferin, on their visits to Canada. Other esteemed visitors included members of the Six Nations such as Thayendanegea (Joseph Brant) and his sister Koñwatsi'tsiaiéñni (Molly Brant), the second wife of Sir William Johnson. Gonwatsijayenni was a Mohawk clan mother, matriarch and loyalist who had much power in the dealings of the Confederacy. 

BTW I dont own rights to any of this..this is copy pasted from ARchives- I've only put here to see not to post up on a profile as is..the words belong to whoever wrote them and to the gov. archives.. so read in the archives..cauz theres more with lots of links,

'http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/aboriginal-heritage/first-nations/Pages/pauline-johnson.aspx

by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Pilot (164k points)
+2 votes

BTW I noticed no Archival Records on Tecumseh profile. so here is link to the archives for- http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayEcopies&lang=eng&rec_nbr=2079429&title=HEADQUARTERS%20-%20CORRESPONDENCE%20CONCERNING%20THE%20LOCATION%20OF%20THE%20GRAVE%20OF%20TECUMSEH%20KILLED%20IN%20THE%20BATTLE%20OF%20MORAVIANTOWN,%20OCTOBER%2015,%201813.&ecopy=e002563933

HEADQUARTERS - CORRESPONDENCE CONCERNING THE LOCATION OF THE GRAVE OF TECUMSEH KILLED IN THE BATTLE OF MORAVIANTOWN, OCTOBER 15, 1813.

by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Pilot (164k points)
+4 votes

I have been struggling with how to respond to the comments on this thread that Tecumseh was a mixed-blood person without offending people but I can’t let the comment stand since it’s totally untrue.  Tecumseh was Shawnee, his parents are known and they were Shawnee.  There is no ambiguity. The color of his hair and skin are immaterial.  No one was white. There is not one piece of historical evidence to suggest anything different.  Claiming that such a prominent Indian was mixed-blood is not harmless, it’s a white privilege statement.  It insults the man, his tribe, and all Indians.

by Kathie Forbes G2G6 Pilot (867k points)
My ggg grandfather was 100% Shawnee and the testing of DNA poroved the Last 150 years was wrong he was 1/4 French and your the first person I told this to…

One thing we all know for sure is … we do not know period… we also learned his wife … was Native and although the Chief had heard Thomas A Captains (b 1850) that his wife was part native we now know for 100% sure she was… so for sure no one knew anything.. so smile your correct its possible . Good intentions do not find truth but DNA did

John have you seen this book by D.C. Gideon- "INdian Territory, Descriptive Biographical and Genealogical  Including the Landed Estates, County Seats, Etc, Etc. published 1901?  the dedication says.. To my Choctaw Wife, This Volume is Affectionately Dedicated.

Page 348 - Thomas Captain

Thomas Captain is a resident of Seneca, Missouri, his home being on the boundary of the territory.  He was born at the place of his present residence about the year 1850.  His father's name was Wau-a-ha-gu-ma, while mother was Ma-ta-haw-e-seec.  His paternal grandfather was a white man.  His mother was a full-blooded Shawnee and his father was a half-breed Shawnee.  He had one brother and two sisters, but they are now deceased and the parents have also passed away.  They were farming people and Mr. Captain of this review, was reared on a farm, where he early became familiar with all the duties and labors which fall to the lot of the agriculturist.  January 4, 1884. he was united in marriage to Miss Martha Ellen Gullet, a white woman and the marriage has been blessed with nine children, namely:  Thomas Andrew, who was born in 1884 and is now attending Haskell College at Lawrence, Kansas; Mary Ellen 1888; Charles Selby; 1890; William Henry, 1894; Sarah May, 1892; Michael Francis, 1895: Gracie, 1897;  George Philemon, 1899; and Martha Eveline, 1901.  The children who are old enough are attending school and are thus being well fitted for the practical and responsible duties of life.

     Mr. Captain is a agriculturist, carrying on business on an extensive scale.  He not only raises the grains best adapted to this climate, but is also extensively engaged in stock-raising and has fine herds of cattle which bring good market prices that annually add to his income.  His property interest are valuable and he is umbered among the substantial citizens of the community in which he makes his home.

Here is the link to this info- the book is a free download

https://books.google.com/books?id=cRM1AQAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=Wau+ha+gu+ma&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Tecumseh is known for having hazel eyes and light skin.. He was able to dress in white peoples clothing and fit in at a military camp..
Yes thank you  yes i have seen that..

the issue of Thomas Captain’s (b1850)  parents Ma-ta-wa-sa  and Non-ho-gom-we (12 spellings)

 is not once other then referring to the name Captain as a add on ( on a census with “Ma-ta-wa-sa Captain”)

(we do not know if that was in reference to the change or it was already changed)

 since Thomas Captain (b1850) was the first one to carry the name..

NOTE: We have officially learned via DNA on that Thomas Captain (B1850)

(native project Roberta did the research)

The  DNA said Thomas Captain was not 100% native but rather 1/4 French ..

 can you all help find that French person .. also i need to share my DNA file so i hope to find out how

Maybe the Tribe can hold a contest and donate to a group for finding it ?
If Thomas Captain was 1/4 French that would mean a grandparent was French.  It was not unusual for French traders to take Indian wives and father Indian children as late as the early 1800’s, so that would fit.  Were Thomas’ grandparents with the Shawnee in Missouri, Canada, or the Detroit area where they would be likely to encounter a French trader?  There are a few records of those groups.  Some mixed couples were married in the Catholic Church and there are records, but in many cases the father is unknown.

Kathie, 

Please delete if not allowed to paste from the report we had done. Until i learn how to do this properly ..

Please always refer to the spreadsheet for more information.

Based on the scenario where Thomas Captain Sr.’s father was half white and half Native, your percentage of Native heritage reflects what can reasonably be expected at your generation and later generational intermarriage with white women beginning with Martha Ellen Gullett.

 In the spreadsheet, I extrapolated your DNA percentage back up the tree, assuming you inherited half of your ancestor’s DNA in each generation.

I tried to correlate this with the percentages such as 3/16ths, etc, but the actual percentages of DNA line up almost exactly with the expected amount for Thomas Captain Sr.’s grandfather to be white and his other three grandparents to be Native.

The last person in this line to carry mitochondrial DNA is Thomas Andrew Captain Sr. who did not pass it to his children. They received his wife’s mitochondrial DNA.

The only possibility would be is if:

1. We knew the identity of Thomas Andrew Captain’s sisters, and at least one person descends from those sisters through all females to the current generation where either males or females can test. Additionally, number 2.

2. WecanidentifyfemalechildrendescendedfromTecumseh’smotherthroughher first husband who were full siblings of Tecumseh and the Prophet. If those female children have descendants through all females to the current generation, and will test, they could be compared to the person in item 1.

However, this match, even if exact, would not prove a common mother. It could, however, disprove that Meth-as-tah-kee was the common mother of both sets of children. I will discuss this further at the end of the report.

The X Chromosome

The X chromosome is autosomal, but it has a unique inheritance path. Specifically, men inherit their Y chromosome from their father, so they only inherit an X from their mother. Women inherit an X from both parents, like any autosomal DNA.

Men pass no X to their sons, but pass their mother’s X, intact, to their daughters.

On the X chromosome spreadsheet tab, I’ve drawn out the X path in both scenarios in mustard. In other words, how much of Tecumseh’s mother’s DNA the people in mustard inherited.

Conclusion

The Captain Y DNA is of European origin. We don’t know the name of the European ancestor, nor when the European DNA entered the Captain lineage.

Eventually, you may match someone on the Y DNA with a surname that is either a close match or known to be associated with the Shawnee.

Using autosomal DNA, the three testers, John Captain, Joyce Moore and Donald Rickner match at the anticipated level for the known relationship. Furthermore, all three testers share a level of Native ethnicity that is appropriate and expected for Thomas Andrew Captain, Sr. born circa 1850 to be 75% Native – meaning his grandfather is a white man and all three of his other grandparents are 100% Native.

Mitochondrial DNA will not help with this analysis unless you can selectively recruit people, as described, to take the mitochondrial DNA test. This would be a good test because mitochondrial DNA is never admixed with the mitochondrial DNA of the father. However, the drawback will be that while it could prove that Tecumseh’s mother is NOT the mother of Meth-as-tah-kee, it cannot prove that she is. This is because

  

mitochondrial DNA remains the same for generations, so many women in the Shawnee tribe likely shared the same mitochondrial DNA because there were few original ancestors. In other words, the mitochondrial DNA could match because Metheotasha was the mother of both Tecumseh and Meth-as-tah-kee, or because their different mothers shared common ancestors, either recently, such as sisters or first cousins, or more distantly. Their mitochondrial DNA cold still match exactly.

The X chromosome MIGHT be useful, but only if the genealogy can be better defined and proven. However, the X chromosome is diluted, the same as autosomal DNA, and while it too might be suggestive, it can’t be conclusive.

Autosomal DNA, in general, presents a problem in endogamous populations which are, by definition populations that have intermarried for generations. The Native people only had other Native people to intermarry with until Europeans arrived in the 1400s. Therefore, Native people can expect to share more DNA than people from non- endogamous populations because they share so many ancestors for so very long.

I wrote about endogamy here: https://dna-explained.com/2019/05/09/concepts- endogamy-and-dna-segments/

Given that the Native population was dramatically reduced as a result of both warfare and disease, not to mention genocidal policies, even a mitochondrial match would not be conclusive. It could, however, rule out the possibility that Tecumseh and Meth-as- tah-kee shared a mother.

Multiple pieces of evidence would strengthen the argument that they did share a mother.

Johncaptain@hotmail.com
Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma 
Captain link to ? 
It’s all overwhelming so if anyone can help that is wonderful for this group and our tribe.

Thomas Captain B1850 did he have a sister and if he's is any Female line living for testing that is this weeks issue…. Heck if i know im a DJ not a researcher. Help!
That all makes sense, but is only useful for finding that elusive French trader if you find other people whose DNA matches you (and other descendants of Thomas) who are descended from an identifiable French man.  Have you loaded your DNA data to Gedmatch?  That seems the most likely way to find DNA relatives.  And as Roberta notes, there is no way to prove that Thomas Captain’s mother was the sister of Tecumseh because the Shawnee, like most Native people, are very interrelated.  If their mitochondrial DNA matched that could easily mean that Thomas’ mother and Tecumseh’s mother were descended from the same Shawnee woman and were cousins at some level.  You already know that Thomas was Shawnee, that his parents were Shawnee, and that three of their four parents were Shawnee.  If every citizen of the three Shawnee tribes did a DNA test there would probably be quite a few common lines of descent identified as well as identifying lines that are not connected, but that still doesn’t tell you who those early people were.   I know it’s frustrating, but at some point everyone’s family lines go back to people whose names are the only thing known about them. Sometimes we just have to accept that we won’t ever know more.  DNA is better at definitively disproving early relationships than at confirming them but it’s your best hope for learning more about Thomas’ family.
John, I think more people would see your request if you started a new thread, this is buried in all that junk about the Ice family.  Try asking the question "Was Thomas Captain's mother the sister of Tecumseh?"  post what you know about her,and repost your information from Roberta Estes with your request for DNA testers.
I know you are 100% correct and thank you

you said inner related … oh my … limited crowd to pull from I assume. Ugh..

We do not know if they were all Shawnee maybe 1/2 were… not sure yet..
+4 votes
Marguarite is my 7th great grandmother through her daughter Maletta who is my 6th great grandmother. The Ice (actually spelled Iaac)  linage is through her father Frederick Ice (Iaac) II. It should remain as it is part of our true genealogy and this was not a picture of Methtoasaske,  Thank you.
by Tamara Dalrymple G2G Crew (320 points)

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