Mother of Tecumseh?

+11 votes
783 views
The mother of Tecumseh, well known Shawnee Chief, is said by many biographers to be a Shawnee/Creek woman named Methotaske/Methoatasskee. According to 2nd Chief Ben Barnes, she may have been Shawnee and /or Creek in origin. The one thing she was not was a white woman named Margarite. Can we please remove Ice-67 as the mother of Tecumseh?
WikiTree profile: Tekoomsē Shawnee
asked in Genealogy Help by Jeanie Roberts G2G6 Pilot (119k points)
My comment, "This was told to me by a full-blooded Shawnee" was referring to Tecumseh's hair color. I do not know whether it is true or not, only that it is what I have been told and seen references to.
That could very well be Deborah as he was not a full blood. His mother reportedly had red hair. A touch of the colour still carries on to this day in the  Canadian family. I have met one man almost 20 years ago that said he was a descendant of Tecumseh... he didn’t give me any information for me to believe him, so I didn’t....and one reason for that was because he was looking in the wrong area...whether he was Native or not, my guess was that he wasn’t. He was white with red hair.
Tecumseh was a fullblood Shawnee pure and simple.  He had  NO white parent.  His father may have had a Creek parent.  Please stop propagating false information about him.  There are many surviving contemporary descritions of his appearance.  No mention of red hair which would have beenquite noticeable,
Tecumseh was not a full blood! I don’t know where you are getting your information but it just isn’t so.  What you are saying just isn’t right.  His father wasn’t from the Creek either, but from a different tribe. Things have to be told right!
Do you know if tecumseh was related to bob benge? They rode together and bob benge grandmother was shawnee and cherokee. I'm wondering if they were related?
I only know of the family in Canada.  Tecumseh's sister stayed in Canada. married and had her family here.  She is buried here in Ontario in an unmarked grave by her family.
Tecumseh was not related to Bob Benge, a Cherokee.  Benge had a Cherokee mother and white father; his mother also had a Cherokee mother and white father.  As a young man Tecumseh (and a group of other Shawnee) spent time with the Cherokee in the 1790’s (Benge was killed in 1794) but that’s the only connection.
Wow!! I am still so confused. This is what I know for sure, Native Americans passed on their history with stories so that nothing would be forgotten from generation to generation.  Whites would write stories they would get 2nd or 3rd hand and they believed it was true. Sometimes they would exaggerate to sell a story, I am White, and I have read so many conflicting stories and blogs it makes my head spin.  Each person wants their truth heard, each person wants their story to be true.  I honestly don't know know if I have any Native American ancestors because by DNA doesn't show it, and it would be so far back not even my parents DNA would show it.  I know that the Native Americans were screwed over BIG TIME by the US Government, promises were made, broken, and human lives were taken and land stolen. History is full of these shameful acts. I am ashamed to be related to anyone that would do this to another human being just because they won't give up land and their way of life.  The whites were the savages, not the other way around.

Oral history is very important. The written word, not matter how well documented has been proven wrong before. World history is full of assumptions, corrections and truths.  Everyone can agree to disagree. I don't know if I am a distant relative of Tecumseh, if I were, I would be proud to be related to such a man, if I am not, it is truly my loss.

I will continue to search for my history. Only Tecumseh knows the truth.
Unless you have had a full genome DNA test which costs between 700-2500 dollars than you dont know. Ancestry and 23 and some other companies advertised only test 23 chromosomes. We have 46. There are still 23 chromosomes not tested laying dormant. People should not just rely on a test but also do research. Research research research.
Thankyou

6 Answers

+3 votes
I object to the removal. There are family members who are of direct line to Tecumseh that share DNA in a Gedmatch DNA project with Tecumseh and Ice family members. It shows that Mary Ice is shown the mother of Tecumseh. We have lots of family and family stories, and books. Please look at more than just one book, and the geneology and the DNA.
answered by
And it is not Mary Iaac ... it is Mary ICE
Anonymous, what exactly shows Mary Ice as mother of Tecumseh?

It sounds like Ice desendants may share DNA with descendants of Tecumseh but how does that confirm that a specific Ice family member was mother of Tecumseh?

Where online is this DNA connection discussed?

Thanks.
A contemporary member of the family did give the information, Tecumseh's brother, The Prophet. This is stated on their mother's profile page.
+1 vote
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answered by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Mach 3 (36.3k points)
edited by Arora Anonymous
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0 votes
commented info was  "not acceptable" to the "experts" so removed by self
answered by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Mach 3 (36.3k points)
edited by Arora Anonymous
Some times that may be true, but in this case Tecumseh’s life and family are well known and well documented by the Shawnee as well as whites.  People seem to think it’s ok to make up stories and claim it’s “oral history” when it’s not at all.  People like Don Greene have done endless harm by creating false genealogies for real Shawnee people, by claiming real white people were Shawnee, and by inventing people out of thin air.
Tecumseh’s life is no different. People only hear what the white people have written. The oral history, our history is quite different. Some things might be the same but not all. I noticed that right away doing my family tree and learning the history here. We have all heard the stories from books but what I found was different from the books. Learning what I did made me understand him and his family more, and none of it was in the books.
Theresa, not sure what to do about this. My family also had oral tradition about our ancestors that I later found out not to be true. My emigrating gr-gr-grandmother was not Jewish despite the fact that she was called Judische-frau by her family and friends.  She and her husband were not married on the ship they emigrated on.  They did not own a railroad in the old country. Some older members of my family were not happy to have their oral tradition debunked but I had found the records to show otherwise.  

Perhaps you could draft a paragraph and we could place under a section called == Oral Tradition == with the caveat that records don't exist to support the tradition, and that some records actually contradict the tradition.
Unless an “oral tradition” is supported by the tribe in question, I don’t think the stories should be posted to the profiles of documented people.  If they go anywhere, it would be on the profile of the descendant in question.
good point, Kathie.

I don't know enough about the origins of the oral tradition that Theresa is describing.
Tecumseh’s only known descendants are members of the Absentee Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma.  His son was part of the group of Shawnee who moved to Missouri between 1795 and 1825. The group split and some went to live on the Texas/Oklahoma border, with the others moving to a reservation in Kansas about 1825.  Tecumseh’s grandson was one of the leaders of the group that became the “Absentee Shawnee” when they finally settled in central Oklahoma.
I am not saying that for this case the "white version" is completely untrue - but think about it - whites were not afraid to break treaties or any promises to the hosts that took them into this land and shared the flora and fauna and great beauty and the ways of nature with them - why do we treat the written history they leave?  They obviously thought they were better than the original inhabitants and in general have no reason to accurately present the whole truth - sure many "famous indians" may have the more widely accepted story we can find in print - but those who were family have much more reason to keep the family tree in the way they have for thousands of years - as we are finding out recently through scientists comparing Traditional Oral Histories to archeological work and carbon dating - you may be being fooled
We had a chat about this last week, there are peoples out there that claim to be Tecumseh’s or his families descendants and not all are, but that’s the case in any of the history of anyone. Don’t forget, Tecumseh was a travelling man. We don’t know what went on in their travels. Good thing for DNA but that only works if people are willing to take it.
I saw this and said what I did not necessarily about Tecumseh. I do not know much from my family as our heritage was lost the border having fallen where it did, it was more advantageous for my mother's family to "pass for white" than remain Métis and so nothing was passed on to my mom, youngest of ten.  I just know that the culture is different and people generally do not understand other cultures without a lot of study and so I feel this is one of the bad things about the genealogy standards - and it is not just First Nations/Native American culture that does not fit neatly into the frame of what people expect - we have seen where language and naming practices of other cultures present difficulties when we try to fit them into the tree - if we all really want it to become a worldwide tree we need to be willing to learn and accept different ways than what we are used to.
Arora, I see no response "by the experts" directed at you or your post. I'm sorry you felt the need to edit out your comments.  They have been helpful.
+1 vote

ok so was going to stay outta this mess, buuuut, since someone chose to make such a rediculous comment as to assume that There was no way Tecumseh could have lighter skin, hair, etc...weelllll, I just can't help myself.  see I don't like mythical made-up info mixed into genealogy at all..BUT nor do i like seeing the ugly "R" showing up in ANY convos...see way I see it, people are people AND the WHOOOLE Purpose of Wikitree is to PROVE how WE ARE ALL RELATED!..& Ones that come from the First Nations, Northern  & & Arctic, as well as ALL North Amercian Nations & Probably South American Nations as well...We all KNO, been taught, been told..."we are all related, we are all relations, we are all ONE"...Its easy to forget this lil tidbit when things get heated over who came from where and who is connected to who..but hey, everybody loves the "heros" right?  Not having answers that are totally in-your-face with pieces of paper attached as proof sure can create major "wars" in genealogy.  but try to remember, everyone wants the answers, sometimes the answers aren't what we hope for, or expect..but getting to the truth, should be what is most important..name calling, accusations, and snide remarks shouldn't enter in to any of it. So here let me add a lil more confusion to this ball of wax, not to mean, snide, or indifferent..but to shed light on some of the genealogical connections that maybe being missed here, that may help give a new direction to investigate from.  You see, this Archival photo & record in canada, mentions this "person" is an ACKNOWLEDGED Descendant not only of a couple of 6 Nations Chiefs, but also of a few others of interest..including...of all ppl...Tecumsah....So before you all blow this one off..maybe research, and dig deeper and then..dig some more before you discard .  just a thought.

Emily Pauline Johnson (Tekahionwake)

Emily Pauline Johnson (Tekahionwake)
Source

Documents in the LAC Collection that trace her life and times.

Born: March 10, 1861

Six Nations of the Grand River, Canada West


Died: March 7, 1913  

Vancouver, British Columbia

Great-grandfather:     Tekahionwake (Jacob Johnson)


Grandfather:    Chief Sakayengwaraton (John “Smoke” Johnson)


Grandmother:    Helen (Nellie) Martin

Father:    Onwanonsyshon (George Henry Martin Johnson)

Mother:    Emily Susanna Howells

Background 

Emily Pauline Johnson was the youngest of four children born to an Englishwoman, named Emily Susanna Howells, and Mohawk Chief Teyonhehkon, a descendant of Hiawatha and Dekanahwideh, the Peacemaker, and other leaders Pontiac and Tecumseh.

Pauline’s family blended and reflected two distinct cultural heritages: one being the customs, traditions, myths, legends and historical accounts of her Mohawk heritage from the Wolf, Bear and Turtle clans, and the other being her mother’s British background.  

The Mohawk were one of six nations represented in the Iroquois Confederacy, governed by a Great Law of Peace and consisting of 50 sachems (chiefs of the ruling council within a Confederacy) chosen by the matriarchs of the Iroquoian societies. Members of these societies refer to themselves as the Haudenosaunee, meaning “People of the Longhouse.” They are linked together by shared languages, cultural heritages and histories. As a member of the League of Six Nations, the Mohawk are known as the Keepers of the Eastern Door and were regarded as leaders of the Confederacy by British Superintendent of Indian Affairs Sir William Johnson.

Chief Tekahionwake, Pauline’s great-grandfather, was the first to be given the English name, Johnson (after Sir William Johnson) at birth. In turn, Sir William Johnson was given the Mohawk name, Waraghiyagey.

Pauline was born at “Chiefswood,” a home her father built for his wife on the reserve land of the Six Nations of the Grand River, a region of forest that stretched from the Great Lakes northward.

A number of distinguished guests came to Chiefswood, such as Princess Louise, Prince Arthur and Lord Dufferin, on their visits to Canada. Other esteemed visitors included members of the Six Nations such as Thayendanegea (Joseph Brant) and his sister Koñwatsi'tsiaiéñni (Molly Brant), the second wife of Sir William Johnson. Gonwatsijayenni was a Mohawk clan mother, matriarch and loyalist who had much power in the dealings of the Confederacy. 

BTW I dont own rights to any of this..this is copy pasted from ARchives- I've only put here to see not to post up on a profile as is..the words belong to whoever wrote them and to the gov. archives.. so read in the archives..cauz theres more with lots of links,

'http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/aboriginal-heritage/first-nations/Pages/pauline-johnson.aspx

answered by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Mach 3 (36.3k points)
0 votes

BTW I noticed no Archival Records on Tecumseh profile. so here is link to the archives for- http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayEcopies&lang=eng&rec_nbr=2079429&title=HEADQUARTERS%20-%20CORRESPONDENCE%20CONCERNING%20THE%20LOCATION%20OF%20THE%20GRAVE%20OF%20TECUMSEH%20KILLED%20IN%20THE%20BATTLE%20OF%20MORAVIANTOWN,%20OCTOBER%2015,%201813.&ecopy=e002563933

HEADQUARTERS - CORRESPONDENCE CONCERNING THE LOCATION OF THE GRAVE OF TECUMSEH KILLED IN THE BATTLE OF MORAVIANTOWN, OCTOBER 15, 1813.

answered by Arora Anonymous G2G6 Mach 3 (36.3k points)
0 votes

I have been struggling with how to respond to the comments on this thread that Tecumseh was a mixed-blood person without offending people but I can’t let the comment stand since it’s totally untrue.  Tecumseh was Shawnee, his parents are known and they were Shawnee.  There is no ambiguity. The color of his hair and skin are immaterial.  No one was white. There is not one piece of historical evidence to suggest anything different.  Claiming that such a prominent Indian was mixed-blood is not harmless, it’s a white privilege statement.  It insults the man, his tribe, and all Indians.

answered by Kathie Forbes G2G6 Mach 6 (61.6k points)
Kathy Forbes-sorrythis whole attitude is harmful and insulting to many who are just trying to do genealogy.  do I agree that most likely Tecumseh was full-blood, yes I do agree..BUT I also know from multiple Decades of research, that what we think we know and what is plausible/possible & Accurate may be two very different things, and until records actually are on Tecumseh's page (Just Like What is REQUIRED on Wikitree for ALL Pages for ALL Others) I see no reason why Disputed info's shouldn't be At the very least, placed in some kind of Research Ongoing Notes section of the Disputed infos.  There seems to be NO issue doing this for other profiles..."Euro" ones or Others..so why should Tecumseh's page fall into a different set of standards and rules?  Sorry I don't think it does.  BTW...I'm NOT one who seems to think I'm connected to him or his so it not my reasoning on this issue.  My reasoning is based on Facts on his page.  Everything on his page is based on Books, I see not 1 actual document, unless the Archives Letters of Canada pertaining to his "burial" and request to move his remains" has been put on his page (that I added links to last night in mssg. section of his profile).  And On your "harmless and white priveledge" remarks.. what is harmful is the continual use of racial disparities, to even say that MIXED BLOODS are "white privledged!"  where do you get off????? that is racial discrimination in its own words!  Your elders apparently didn't teach you well about "family".  ITs attitudes like this that are helping to remove actually "branded" n8vs from the reservations where thier families have lived for multigenerations!  It is this attitude that the US government STarted in order to KILL the Indian..destroy them by genocide or intermarriage till they are no longer Seen as n8v!  Apparently you werent taught about the 7th generation either!  No have you EVER seen the Athabaskan or Inuipiaq of Alaska..and in Canada or many of the First Nations of the North East guess what many of them..US have skin that is NOT dark or always dark! some of us don't look "like an indian of the NW or the SW!"  AS for insulting tribes and all indians, sorry I know better, too many of my card carryin branded ELDERS taught me better than this!  MY point of Adding the E.Pauline Johnson Archives record was to SHOW that this archive says she has relation ties to Tecumseh. Most likely those ties are thru her fathers family,...but apparently the marriages of her fathers lines and where they connect to possibly Tecumseh's Father or ?? maybe of no interest or importance to you...ya might find bloodlines in there that is tainted.  wow....

when ignorance by choice keeps one from looking at other possible solutions, there is no compromise to find solutions or answers.
If people don’t understand why it’s wrong for white people to rewrite Native history nothing I can say will help.  This has nothing to do with people being mixed, I’m a Cherokee citizen with mostly white ancestors.  That my Cherokee grandfather had red hair has absolutely nothing to do with his Cherokee-ness or mine.  Its not my skin color, eye color, or hair color that make me Cherokee, its’ cuture, history, and my ancestors.
Kathy not a personal attack is a response to too many things you have continued to say in here. including remarks about mixed blood would b  an insult to the heritage of Tecumseh.  That in itself was a derogatory attack on others of mixed blood. if you can't see that or understand that, I'm sorry. was not meant to offend you.  You come from mixed blood, so you of all people should understand why so many get passionate about finding their heritage and connecting to it.

Again, I agree, Tecumseh was most likely full-blood, I don't think of all Shawnee, but hey what do i kno.  But I do agree with you Kathy I don't think parents without verification should be connected. Heck I just connected 2 of my lines in wikitree that I've had connected in my private tree for years, but until I found a single shred of proof of the marriages I wasn't connecting them. By doing so it brought over 4 and 6 generations into fully connected & now both lines go all the way back to 1600s.  But I didn't do it till i found a record to verify.  I wanted to but I know better. doesn't matter how many say it "is"..find the proof.  

see Kathy  I don't dislike you, I actually agree with you  on most things..

.please forgive my response if you felt it was a personal attack.

I put you name on it so you'd kno I was speaking to you about all of this, not meant as an attack on you..but to ask you to confront terms you have been using, that I and others were seeing as a "racial /blood quantum/ and skin color " attacks.  goes both ways
you just said "Its not my skin color, eye color, or hair color that make me Cherokee, its’ cuture, history, and my ancestors."  there is is the key..your last 2 words....  MY Ancestors..  yes  you know your ancestors, but many aren't so lucky.  that doesn't mean they can't know them, or learn about them, or learn their ancestors heritages, or ways or beliefs.  BUt to do so, one must first kno who those ancestors are.  Irish, French, English, German, Polish, Indian(Inda), Spaniard, Latin, Greek..  doesn't matter... where they came from, or how famous they were or weren't ...if you don't know them or their names... then you don't fully know where u came from..that is what ppl desperately want in here is to find "theirs" and in many cases in here just like on other genealogy sites there are going to be ones that want to claim, "I' from Royalty, I'm from Warriors, Famous, etc.  If everyone could just focus on the actual problem here...  FIND a Record, something that says "this person and his wife & children" that is NOT from some book written after he died..unless the book came out ..within that first year after his death, then at least the possiblity that the authur was  alive during the life in question makes their authored info possible.  just another thought.

btw Kathy..  I think your knowledge ofn8v  histories is truly indispensable.

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