Numbers in Naming Fields--Yes or No?

+13 votes
405 views

A recent software glitch which gave this message for all fields:

The Nicknames can only contain letters, spaces, periods, dashes, and apostrophes.

sent us all scrambling and running scared.  There are those who don't believe NUMBERS  should be allowed in any of the Name Fields including Prefix or Suffix.  However, current WikiTree Styles and Procedures allows for numbers in certain instances such as Peerage Titles which are expected to go in the nickname box (such as 8th Duke of....).  What about a 2nd Lieutenant?  What Prefix would be acceptable without a number?

 

I have been asked to start a discussion about numbers in any Name Field including Suffix and Prefix.  If this is no longer allowed, what will changes will have to be made to the current styles and standards?  Can we live without numbers in these fields? 

Your thoughts on the matter will be greatly appreciated!

edit: added euroaristo tag

in The Tree House by Emma MacBeath G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
edited by Liz Shifflett
Hi Emma! I added the euroaristo tag, since that project's name field guidelines address numbers. For example:

3. PREFERRED NAME: This is the name of the person as they were generally known/called/referred to. It would also have a numeral (i.e. I, II, III) with it if they are known as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Example: Henry III of England - his proper first name is Henry, preferred name is Henry III.

4. OTHER NICKNAMES: This is where their title belongs (i.e. ‘King of England’, ‘Queen of Scots’, ‘Lord of Dunmow’, etc.). Titles may include numbers (i.e. either ‘Earl of Arundel’ or ‘3rd Earl of Arundel’ is acceptable). This is also where any actual nicknames (i.e., ‘The Younger’, ‘The Poor’, ‘Talvas’, ‘The Loyal’, ‘Copped Hat’, etc.) and translations such as Eléonore, Leonor, Eleanor belong. Do not put any nicknames in quotations. Separate multiple names with a comma. Do not list occupations, such as 'Sheriff of Nottingham' or 'Knight'.

from https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats

Cheers, Liz
Excellent.  Thank you Liz!
thanks Liz for posting these, I have put my viewpoint  below
Please will whoever thought it up explain why it matters?
C., Thought what up?
Getting rid of numbers in fields. If I knew why it might be done then I could have an informed view.
Numbers and punctuation marks are usually an indication of something funny going on, ie what you're seeing isn't really a name.

The general idea would be to put the human story in the bio and use the data boxes for data that can be processed by the computer.

This is the only way to provide any tools to make WikiTree more than just a dumb storage box.  Everybody wants better sorting and searching, and the smart matching on other sites is getting better.

But it involves a lot of compromises, at best, and tends to conflict with other principles.
I don't think anybody "thought it up".  It's a bug, a glitch, a side-effect of 'them' doing something else.  See Eowyn's reply below (the selected answer).

6 Answers

+11 votes
 
Best answer
I'm pretty sure this was something that was done accidentally as part of something else we were doing.  It'll be fixed soon.
by Eowyn Walker G2G Astronaut (2.4m points)
selected by Richard Devlin
That is what I understood from Chris as well.  He asked me to throw this question out there on G2G though.  I got the feeling he would like to do away with numbers in the naming fields.

That was my impression, too, Emma; that the tech team wanted to eliminate numbers and punctuation from the non-date data fields.

I think the problem is the extraneous use of numbers and punctuation, rather than the proper use of numbers and punctuation when they are part of the actual name.

However, to fix the extraneous-use problem by eliminating the use of ALL numbers and MOST punctuation has already proven to be counterproductive.

We need to clarify policies first before we resort to drastic measures that prevent the proper display of data. And then, start holding ourselves accountable to those policies.

And hopefully the changes in how Gedcoms are uploaded will help as well.  A lot of the numbers and punctuation junk that shows up in naming fields comes from gedcom uploads.
+8 votes

One important reason for numbers in prefixes is that the prefixes field is too short for spell out something like Second Lieutenant -- titles like that are best abbreviated to something like 2nd Lieut.

And numbers are needed in nicknames because some people were known by epithets that include numbers.

Yesterday when I was surprised because I couldn't save a profile I was editing due to a number (and parentheses) in a place name field, the offending place name was Surrey (43 The Broadway, Knapshill, Woking) and it was not a problem to fix (I edited it to Knapshill, Woking, Surrey, England and put 43 The Broadway, Knapshill, Woking, Surrey in the text), but I think there probably are situations where numbers are necessary in a place name. Examples I know of:

  • Births and deaths at sea that were recorded by the coordinates of the location
  • Births and deaths that occurred in some sort of temporary camp (mining camp, military camp, concentration camp) identified by a name that includes a number.
by Ellen Smith G2G Astronaut (1.5m points)
I do not agree, I feel that it provides a more accurate match and that should be the ultimate goal.
To clarify, when I say matching, I am talking about the WikiTree automated matching system--not a visual matching.
As an example both my location and my fathers could be listed as Chardon, Ohio, USA. The problem is Chardon is in 2 counties and at least 6 townships. Even if you add the township to the designation you are left with about 25 square miles. now if you add the street address alone in my case that still leaves about 177 possible homes so finding me would be a long undertaking without the lot number.
Your last comment is one of the reasons using a computer to make matches is not a good idea in my book, the algorithim is no match for a human.
But it is what we have so we have to work with it :-)
Emma, I didn't create that profile for Woking, Surrey, so I can't say why there was a street address in the name field. I was making some minor change to the profile while passing through, and in order to save my changes I was required to fix the "errors" in the place name field.

It was because I had encountered this new error yesterday that I mentioned it another G2G thread. That instance was easy to fix because the number didn't belong in the place name field, but it got me thinking about other situations where numbers do belong.

The arondissements of Paris are rather large official defined districts of the city that have existed for over 150 years. I've never done genealogy for Paris, but from visiting Paris I know that the arondissement number is a vital piece of information for many purposes. Isabelle states that civic records are maintained by arondissement. Thus, omitting the arondissement number for an event that occurred in Paris could be somewhat akin to identifying the English county where an event occurred, but omitting the name of the parish.
Je suis d'accord, Ellen.  I agree :-)
Exactly Ellen, and the arrondissement in Paris is a full administrative entity, with its city hall, civil servants, and especially its own elected mayor and municipal council. Parisian voters elect the council for their arrondissement, and the mayor of Paris is a sort of super-mayor, not directly elected by voters.

And of course a seperate town hall means a separate "bureau de l'état civil" - the municipal service in charge of recording births, deaths, marriages, among other things. So each arrondissement has its own books.
That makes sense.  Merci Isabelle!

In another thread, Paula J has cited the example of "District 96, South Carolina" as a valid place name with a number in it. It looks like it's now frequently called by the spelled-out name "Ninety-Six" (e.g., on Wikipedia), but it appears the historical name just used the number.

+9 votes
I am 100% pro numbers.

What POSSIBLE reason could there be NOT to allow numbers? Who knows what wacky names parents will give their children in the future? And as a contrarian/rebel, I KNOW that someone is already planning to name a new town some numeral combination.

As for punctuation - that's a different situation. If it wasn't written that way by THEIR convention, we shouldn't include extraneous punctuation in the data fields; we can reference current locations in the biography.

Numbers save space and money; punctuation increases costs!! (That last exclamation point cost WikiTree at least a nickel)
by Lindy Jones G2G6 Pilot (252k points)
LOL.  Thank you Lindy for chiming in!! I threw an extra nickel in for ya ;-)
Here's a person who uses a numeral as her middle name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_8._Lee
Ellen, this example would cause a database error no matter what because of its rarity so would have to be marked as a false error.  Wow! A number as a middle name.  Why not?!
Yes, that would be interpreted as an error, but it needs to be an error that can be over-ridden. It should not be the kind of error that prevents the page from being saved (particularly not when one is only doing cleanup editing on an existing page).
I agree Ellen.  There needs to be room for exceptions to the rule such as this person's name which is correct and legitimate.
+12 votes
If I mention Henry VIII, then I would think that a high percentage of people on Wikitree will know who I am talking about, but if I talk about Henry Tudor,  it becomes more confusing.  Am I meaning Henry VIII or his father or even a couple of sons who died as babies?

The number after the name of most reigning monarchs and many other Royal/noble families is an integral part of their name and to leave it out of at least one of the name fields would seem to make more confusion over who the profile represents.

For a similar though different reason we number various holders of peerage titles.  Again Thomas Howard Duke of Norfolk could refer to a number of different men.  Saying he is the 3rd Duke of Norfolk clearly identifies who we mean.  I have seen this written as Third Duke of Norfolk, but this isn't the usual way we refer to these peerage titles, though to complicate matters it might be how he is known in more formal documents.

So I think numbers in name fields are essential.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (603k points)
I couldn't agree more.  Thanks John :-)
Not sure VIII counts as a number!

Not absolutely sure either, but the convention of using roman numbers for ordinals is not universal. The Danish convention, for one, is to use arabic figures (followed by a dot), see for instance: Fredrik 8..

To concur with John, in the European Aristocrats project, we use #'s (albeit Roman numeral ones) in name fields as we do not want them in the suffix field.  It makes it easier to locate and differentiate.  When I come across one with a II in the suffix field, I remove it and add it after the name in the 'preferred name' field.  Mind you, for modern day profiles the situation is entirely different.  This is specific to EuroAristo.
+8 votes
A big yes.

Since I joined last year I've been working with a large number of noble/aristocratic families in all parts of the world. It has common to see the same name carry for 4+ generations. e.g Nathaniel Curzon or Anthony Ashley-Cooper. Peerage titles aren't a big deal - categories deal with them (all of them)
by Richard Shelley G2G6 Pilot (243k points)
+6 votes
I think you have to allow numbers or Roman numerals.  All of George Foreman's son are named George Edward Foreman: George Edward Jr., George Edward III ("Monk"), George Edward IV ("Big Wheel"), George Edward V ("Red"), etc. Just leaving this to the suffix field isn't enough as they are called both by their nicknames and by their numbers.
by Vic Watt G2G6 Pilot (353k points)
Vic, I agree with the need to permit numbers and perhaps even some symbols in name segment fields, however I just want to point out that Roman numerals do not present any issue when only alphabetic characters are allowed, since they are composed exclusively of these.

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