Can this birth record be associated with Friedrich Ludwig Christian Engels

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Fredrich Christian Ludwig geboortedatum: 08-01-1804 doopdatum: 25-01-1804 kerk: Nieuwe Kerk godsdienst: Hervormd vader: Engels, Theodor Isaac moeder: Tukkermann, Frederica getuige: Riem, Fredrich Christian Ludwig getuige: Riem geboren Ingenohl, Maria Elisabeth bronverwijzing: DTB 61, p.188, nr.5 Archief van de Burgerlijke Stand: doop-, trouw- en begraafboeken van Amsterdam (retroacta van de Burgerlijke Stand) Doopregister: NL-SAA-23506636

Amsterdam Argief 

Here are some Syblings on FS for him if he uses this record.

asked in Genealogy Help by Louis Heyman G2G6 Mach 3 (38.3k points)

1 Answer

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Best answer
Hi Louis

Looking at the names of the siblings and the listed children I would give it a 99.9% vote

The first Child was named after the maternal grandfather. So no clue there.

The second son and some other children was named after his siblings.

At first it was presumed that he was from Germany but I could find no proof thereof.

SA Stamouers does not mention him.

Waiting to hear from others
answered by Ronel Olivier G2G6 Mach 4 (47k points)
selected by Bea Wijma

I think it's about 99,9 % certain also, there's just one child born in Amsterdam with these names and with a matching year of birth, the names sure sound German, and he is named after the male witness, will look if I can find more info about the family in Amsterdam, perhaps there's something that shows where they originally were from ..

Update:

Here's the marriage 18-07-1794 in Amsterdam of Conrad Carl Friedrich Siekmann and Helena Catharina Charlotta Tuckermann, she perhaps was a sister of his mother (if so these were Frederick's uncle and aunt), it says he was from de Graafschap Mark in Pruissen and she was from Duisberg (Duisburg) in Kleef..

I tried that German origin and can tell you that I could not find anything to confirm that line of research. I am going to load this record because given the similarity in the family names. On the outside chance that this is not his family, it is definitely his father's brother's family and as such his cousin's record. I think it will only advance future research to go ahead. Just needed confirmation that I am not that far out.

Thanks for your advice :)

Hi Louis, 

I have updated the previous comment, it looks like some relatives that were mentioned at some baptisms, (and perhaps his mother) were from Germany ? Not sure where his father was from so still looking for more..

Here's the burial of his father,

 Engels, Theodor Isaac - 09-03-1809 - Nieuwe Kerk en Engelse Kerk - DTB 1061, p.43vo en p.44 - A04163000048

There was an earlier Theodorus Engels who was buried in 1795 and where it's mentiond the child was a son of Izaac

Assuming Fredericks father was also a son of this man named Isaac Engels, perhaps his parents were this Isaac Engels and Jannetje Brand who both were from Amsterdam according the marriage record (not certain and I'm still looking for more sources to determine if he was !)..26-08-1768 - Isaac Engels - Jannetje Brand- DTB 614, p.275 - Huwelijksintekeningen van de KERK. - A30186000140  

It is interesting because the witnes of Jannetje Brand is Maria Redeker her mother, now one brother of Frederick, Peter Arnold Engels is marrying a Catharina Dorothea Redeker (her parents were Carl Frederik Redeker and Anna Debora Backer), perhaps they (Peter Arnold and his wife) were cousins ? Catharina died age 82 in Haarlem, her husband is named just Arnold Engels in that record. and she was born in Amsterdam 13 January 1793

Here's the marriage of Jannetje Brand's parents, Dirk Brand and Maria Redeker in 1747, it also says they both were from Amsterdam.

Thanks Bea,

That confirms my suspicion that they did originate from Germany/Prusia. So it is quite possible that they moved to Amsterdam and became Dutch with their names, which would explain why he used Dutch names on his immigration records

I know there was a  Ferdinand Friedrich Ludwig Winand Engels (1803 - 1857) son of Carl Johann III. Engels  and  *Anna Charlotte Henriette Winandine Schaumburg who came from Germany, but have not done any research as he was clearly not our man . More than that I am unable to contribute. Sorry Louis 

I agree Louis

Adding all the wonderful new information will be great.

As you say -Should it turn out not to be correct one can always move it, but I have a hunch it is correct.
Many thanks Bea

Wow you were grinding the research wheels hey? :-P

You are a star !!
Added a bit more Louis and Ronel, once we're grinding those research wheels it's hard to stop eeh, one thing leads to the next and the Familysearch link with all the info about the siblings sure helped a lot  :P

Added some extra info and started looking if perhaps there's a genealogy for these families, here is one and it might be very interesting for you Louis, because it not only has info and tells us where they (probably) were from but there's also a ''Heymans'' marriage that might be interesting for you, or perhaps this marriage was the reason why you were researching this family ?  :  

* Johann Theodor Engelsgeb. in 1695, overl. Kettwig 12 Jan. 1756, tr. als weduwnaar van M. Lejeune, 2e in 1718 Catharina Margaretha HeymansgebOtzenrath (Rijnprov.)

Here's a stamreeks for the Tuckermann family  VI Johann Matthias Tuckermann and Maria Elisabeth Striebeck, were the parents of Fredericks mother (his maternal grandparents)

(Title Nederland's patriciaat Author Epen, Didericus Gijsbertus van, 1868-1930, ed Publish Data 1918)

And here's some info about the coat of arms his father :

Theodore Isaac Engels zou het volgende wapen hebben gevoerd : 

ln blauw een aanziend gestelde gouden engel met de vleugels nederwaarts  gericht en rustende op een losstaande wolk van natuurlijke kleur, gekleed in korte tunica met een rood boek onder den linkerarm en houdende in de rechterhand een gouden kandelaar, waarin een rood-vlammende zilveren kaars Ee n wapen Engels in een wapencollectie op de GemeenteBibliotheek te Rotterdam geeft behoudens de kleuren eene derg. afbeelding te zien; alleen ontbreken daarin boek en kandelaar . 

O and noticed that according the genealogy and this coat of arms info and source, his father must have died after 1809 and in 1833 ? This would mean the Theodor Isaac Engels who was buried in 1809 was a different one, and perhaps a son ? 

This is great stuff, Thanks Bea. Unfortunately he is no relation of mine. He was one of our unknown origin SAR progenitors, now known. :)

Yes it's great how sometimes just a little bit of info can help and lead us all to so many eeh, here's a lot more about the or a Heyman family perhaps this has some 'missing pieces' for your own family tree ?

Thanks for that link Bea,

I bookmarked that patriciaat. Maybe some day it will connect somewhere. My ancester is still in prison in England. I will have to get him out of there sometime. I suspect he was part of the soldiers that were captured at Vlissingen in 1809 by the British

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