Differences of Opinion

+10 votes
348 views

There is a difference of opinion with regard to Anne Croft's profile. Apparently, there may have been a bad merge with two Anne Crofts at some point in time. My preference is that Anne is the spouse of Thomas Blount-323. In Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 311 it is recorded that they married and at least three children: 1) Sir John Blount+[6] b. 1483, d. 1524; 2) Robert Blount+ b. c 1491, d. 1580; 3) Walter Blount+ b. c 1500, d. 3 Oct 1561. 

Apparently, there was another Anne Croft that married John Rodney-43. 

I think what there needs to be is the determination to divide these Anne's into two profiles. What I need is many heads on the matter, and more people that are experienced in Euroaristo/Plantagenet profiles. Thank you to everyone involved in this matter. 

WikiTree profile: Anne Blount
in The Tree House by Lynden Rodriguez G2G6 Mach 3 (31.3k points)
retagged by Robin Lee
I expect the confusion arose because of the two brothers, both named Richard Croft, who both had daughters named Ann. The two Anns would have been first cousins.

I don't see the siblings of Sir Richard Croft up yet, but once they are, the split can be made. There was the younger brother Richard, of Chipping Norton, who predeceased him in 1502, a sister who married John Dombleton, and another probable brother named Thomas who received a grant of lands with Richard Croft the younger in 1461 and 1473.

The family name was Croft of Croft Castle, so probably best to change Richard the elder's son's name John Crofts to John Croft to harmonize. Btb, he's said to be ancestor of the Croft family of Holt, does anyone have descendants for him by his second wife, Elizabeth Seymour?

The visitation of Somerset  has a Jane daughter of Sir James Crofts marrying Sir John Rodney so this adds to the confusion.

However,  Henry Southern, Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas (google books retrospective and antiquarian magazine) state that Jane ​ Anne daughter of Richard Croft, the younger married Sir John Rodney and that Sir Richard Croft, the elder  ​married to Eleanor Cornwall.  They cite the will of Richard Croft 1501 which is to be found in the National Archives 

PROB 11/13/180 Will of Richard Crofte 16 March 1502

Viewable on ancestry UK  if you have access

Written 12 Aug 17 Henry V11 (1501)

 To be buried in Chipping Norton Church

Married to Ann , heir  Hugh, younger son Lionel,

Daughters Anne Rodney and Elizabeth Fienys

The elder Sir  Richard Croft died 8 years later 

PROB 11/16/553  Will of Sir Richard Croft  11 November 1509

also viewable on Ancestry  mentions amongst others

his wife Elyanor, heir Edward Croft, sons John and Robert Croft, bastard son Thomas Croft (decd)and  his wife Elianor

Edward Croft's daughter  (yet another) Elyanor Croft 

''Thomas Blount and his daughter Jayne Blount

I don't think he makes clear what relation Thomas Blount is to him but is certainly close  since Thomas Blount is included as one who is to give advice on a suitable marriage for Edward's daughter Elyanor.

The wills show that there were  2 Richard Crofts ,one living in Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire   with a daughter Ann married to a  Rodney and the other , Sir Richard, married to an Eleanor and closely connected to a Thomas Blount. 

Are the two Richard's brothers?  

There are 2 in the Visitation of Hertfordshire, the younger marrying Agnes Fox ( NB Anne in the will )

The  DNOB   article on Sir Richard includes a bit more about the younger brother also called Richard.

Croft, Sir Richard (1429/30–1509), royal official, was the second son of William Croft of Croft Castle, Herefordshire, and of his wife, Margaret Walwyn. Croft's father and his elder brother, John, died in 1439, and John's posthumous daughter, Joan, in 1445, bringing him the inheritance of a modest but ancient estate. His guardian was Walter Skull. He had two younger brothers (possibly half-brothers), another Richard, and Thomas Croft (c.1435–1488). A sister, Agnes, married Philip Domulton of Brockhampton, near Bromyard, Herefordshire. A complaint by Edward and Edmund, sons of Richard, duke of York, of ‘the odieux rule and demenying of Richard Crofte and his brother’ in 1454 has been cited as evidence that he was tutor to the future Edward IV, but the reference (possibly jocular) is more likely to the younger Richard (Davies, 243). [...] Sir Richard should be distinguished from his brother, also Richard, who appears in the records as ‘the younger’ before Sir Richard's knighthood, thereafter as ‘esquire’. He was closely associated with his younger, probably full, brother, Thomas. The younger Richard was probably the Richard Crofte of the letter of 1454 cited above, and may have been a clerk in the Ludlow household. After Edward IV's accession he gained lands and offices in Oxfordshire, was MP for the county (1472–5), and esquire of the body from 1482. He lost his offices with the accession of Henry VII and died on 26 May 1502    

 

C. S. L. Davies, ‘Croft, Sir Richard (1429/30–1509)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004; online edn, May 2012 [http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/47535, accessed 6 Aug 2017​  (sorry pay to view again but free with UK library card)

The younger Richard is buried alongside his wife in Chipping Norton.(large table tomb with effigies)

(edited as above)

1 Answer

+4 votes
Thanks, Helen, the will is very helpful. I wonder if ancestry has a copy for download.

It's odd that Southern uses it as a source for a Jane Croft marrying John Rodney if the will itself calls her Ann Rodney. Anyway, I think we can assume that if the will and visitation are at odds, the will is correct.

There seems to be no question the two Richards were brothers, only some confusion as to which one did what. Which Richard was tutor? Southern opts for the elder: "His eldest son, Sir Richard Croft, was one of the most celebrated soldiers of his times. The first notice which occurs of him is in a letter from King Edward the Fourth, when Earl of March, and his brother the Earl of Rutland, to their father the Duke of York, about 1456, in which they complained of his and his brother's "odieux reule and demenynge," hence, it is presumed, that they were intrusted to his custody; which opinion is corroborated by the circumstance of his wife Eleanor, the daughter of Sir Edward Cornwall, Baron of Burford, and widow of Sir Hugh Mortimer, Knight, being called "Lady governesse," to the young princes at Ludlow."

The connection with Walter Skull is interesting as Edward, son of Richard the elder, married his daughter Joyce and John, Edward's brother, seems to have married his stepdaughter Joan Wysham. I'm wondering now if that Walter's father was named Walter.

Sorry about lack of sources, will try to fill some in later.
by Monica Edmunds G2G6 Mach 3 (38.0k points)
That was my error, Southern does say Anne not Jane, sorry.

(and yes you can download the wills from Ancestry)
I've checked the will of Richard the younger (apparently never knighted) and it does indeed mention his daughter Ann Rodney (also wife Ann, sons Hugh and Lionell, and daughter Elizabeth Fiennes). So I've created Richard the younger and this daughter Ann and moved Sir John Rodney and their children to her.

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