Can someone include John Drummond, 12th Thane of Lennox? It's pre-1500.

Question

Can someone include the son of https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Drummond-50 that was the 12th thane of Lennox? Another John (my ancestor). 

Sir John Drummond, 12th of Lennox

b.1356 Inchmohomo, Scotland

d.1428 Stobhall, Perth, Scotland

I need him to connect my tree at later point. Some sources beyond those listed in his father profile:

• http://penrose.server296.com/getperson.php?personID=I130172&tree=penrose

• https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-John-Drummond-12th-of-Lennox/6000000006480375026?through=6000000003274238035

• https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:John_Drummond_(4)

I would love to include myself but it's pre-1500 . 

Comments

On a personal side, one of his descendants, John Drummond, first Earl of Melfort, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Drummond-1346, prosecuted one of my uncles, John Porterfield, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Porterfield-52,  during the Killing Times in the late 1600s Scotland. He was convicted and sentenced to death, his lands were taken and his honors were negated. The sentence was not carried out immediately and was eventually overturned William III/II took over the crown.

It is a seminal event for the Porterfield family as this was this was the height of the influence of the Porterfields in Renfrewshire. It was downhill from there. How long do I hold a grudge?  

P. S. John Drummond was actually a distant cousin, also.

Answer 1

Thanks Carlos, a couple of things to note.

Firstly there is already a John Malcolm Drummond as the son of John Drummond, who is presumably meant to be the 12th of Lennox, although he is listed as the 12th Earl of Lennox, but this is probably a mistake.

Secondly for pre-1500 profiles, we should be attempting to find either primary sources or at least good secondary sources, that cite primary sources, and the sources currently on the existing profiles dont fit into either of those categories.  Unfortunately the three extra sources you mention are all basically unsourced family trees, and again not really suitable for pre-1500 profiles.

It looks like these profiles really need some more research to work out if the details already on WikiTree are supported by much better sources.

Comments

According to this unsourced old book

https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/9484/94849717.23.pdf

Malcolm and John were two brothers.

Scots Peerage deals with Malcolm's wife here

https://archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun05paul#page/586/

Malcolm and his brother John are here

https://archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun07paul#page/36/

Their mother is called Montefichet, not the made-up Latin Montifex.

Balfour Paul is unimpressed with the family pedigree.  He doesn't believe in brother William, and says most of the sisters are disproved by evidence.  He says Malcolm was never called an Earl, and he says nothing at all about "Thane of Lennox".

Scottish Thanes are always spurious - blame Shakespeare - but these Drummonds don't seem to have been "of Lennox" at all.

 

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Thanks RJ, that is a great help.  It looks like the 'old book' might be the origin of many of the errors that have crept into the genealogies including what is on WikiTree.

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Complete Peerage 2nd edn Vol 8 p 409 has only a sentence or two on "Sir Malcolm Drummond of Drummond".

Duplicate Isabel, with both husbands

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Douglas-664

Stewart murdered Drummond to marry his wife, apparently.

So John Malcolm can just become John, with just the one wife, Sinclair.

I thought it was genealogical recycling - avoid wasting a suo jure countess on a husband who died sp.  But we don't seem to be exploiting the possibilities, so nobody's ancestry gets harmed here.

 

 

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Thanks... Is that kind of answer that I was longing for... I know that my 3 links are poor sources, unworthy as a motif to create a profile... but If you more experienced could help me find sources to definitely confirm or deny his existence, its worth.

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Thank you.

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John was Justiciar of Scotland, and an ancestor of King James VI/I and all later royals.  Lots more on his ancestors and descendants in Scots Peerage. 

https://archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun07paul#page/39/