If any one is interested in 1350-1720 Scottland [closed]

+19 votes
362 views
I just produced this "1350-1720 Scotland" free page with a bunch of Scotland resources that we or anyone else could use as well, if you are interested in "High Medieval Scottish historical genes". I also created a  wikitree;research info page for this project with the link attached on it that can be used to maybe get some leads,or if a person is on the trusted list he or she could put in an concise entry in the research column section on that page(just make sure too save the entry to a word program file, or app in case it mistakenly gets deleted)You can send a trust invite on this page after looking through it if you wish? Take care XD
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Magnus_Redlon_and_Rawlin_Young_decendants

I'm going to post some names for the project to track down. And the research page is best for if you have a lot of plausible information on someone from this long range of time.
closed with the note: Now closed
asked Nov 5, 2017 in The Tree House by Troy Smith G2G6 Mach 4 (43,030 points)
closed 4 days ago by Troy Smith
now I fixed the name timing to just a set date in and around the terrain of Scotland
Thanks. I have an interest in Renfrewshire and Ayrshire as I have family roots there. They tend to center around the Porterfield family.
Post some leads for those ancestors in the comment section on the profile page even if your iffy on the connection with you and them,So I can add them to the hit list, that I'm going to produce as far as activity goes for now and then that way everyone could coordinate to try and learn about them thxxXD
Will add some later today. I tend to have a number out of the archive.org/ google books. 19th century and some 18th century books I use heavily.

9 Answers

+6 votes
This is a positive initiative Troy, but I think you may need to be a little more clear about your timeline in relation to the name of the page. My schoolgirl memories of history would place High Medieval much earlier than the timeline you are giving of 1340-1720 A.D. I also understood the whole Middle Ages period to be over by the mid 1400s or early 1500s. Perhaps some of our members with a more academic historical background can weigh in on this discussion and help to get this research off to a good start.
answered Nov 5, 2017 by Lynda Crackett G2G6 Pilot (290,140 points)
and that is what i'm trying to get the ball rolling on. thank you for your comment. i'll change the name with the dates and find a new tag, if you want to help out find some of these ancestors, let me know
I would have put it earlier, Wikipedia gives the dates 900-1286 for Scotland.

This database doesn't use the term High Medieval, calling itself People of Medieval Scotland . It covers a period of 1093-1314 should be an important source since it claims to include "This is a database of all known people of Scotland between 1093 and 1314 mentioned in over 8600 contemporary documents. "

http://www.poms.ac.uk/about/

It took a while to orientate myself on the site but suspect that this index of surnames would be an useful entry point http://db.poms.ac.uk/browse/facet/surname/?resulttype=people&totitems=
Thank you Helen,Scotland is full of mystery i'll look at those. but I want to stay in mid 14th to early 18th century.But yeah I was off on that one name terms are very broad statements.my mistake but lets get too it im gonna read those documents, because been researching excessively lately in other subjects now is the time to learn a grand deal a new one. thank you very much

That is more in line with what I remembered Helen. 

Troy, it looks as though you might want to consider a couple of options to avoid confusion:

  1. Stick to the term High Medieval and adjust the timeline accordingly
  2. Drop High and cover the whole of the Middle Ages. This would also need an adjustment of the end date on the timeline.
  3. Remove reference to Medieval in the title if you want to go as far as the 18th Century
I'm sticking with 1350-1720
I changed the title
Good choice. Now I can consider adding some of my ancestors who fall in your time period but who were definitely not medieval :)
thank you Lynda that is awesome.always more too learn, I was never taught Scotland history in school, i'm sure many others can say the same so it's time to learn more and discover something new
. i'm going set up a list of some good candidates too work on get this page going? but I need some more suggestions for that. then the research posts could have some good context too an added goal , if someone had a lot of info to post that was helpful to a goal from a cited source or they're own words
I had my focus on the consistency between your page title and your timeline Troy. I didn’t actually look at any of the sources you listed. I will have to admit I have never heard of David Walter Scott. Does he have a profile?

I am still struggling a little to understand your goal, so maybe you could add some more text to your page explaining what you hope to achieve.
Haha about 6 of them lined up Walter Scott. Yeah even the comment section one of them said that's seems quite inaccurate, just like when I had 16 John Greene's lined up to me hahaha so yeah that line nesds help. Yeah I just started up this page about 18 hours ago so it would help if i could add some people on the page to help me edit and these great suggestions .
Yeah my page needs a whole lot of editing yet. But really it's that Scotland needs help on Genes right now, and most for certain in this time frame that is why I chose it. now the goal is find people so we can connect peoples wiki tree's  out further. A whole lot of people meet dead ends I'm suggesting this time frame is a barrier block
Not sure what you mean by "Scotland needs help on Genes". Are you referring to the Genes Reunited site?

 (Sir Walter "1st Lord Scott of Buccleuch" Scott)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Scott-8321

this kind of stuff too work on.it clearly has pathways that Surmane Stewart is all over the those Orkney Tax documents I posted, And it certainly could use a lot of careful editing

  • Land tax rolls of Scotland 1645-1831

https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/land-tax-rolls-1645-1831

+3 votes
Troy, I am also curious about another term you are using on your page. Can you expain what Nor-Scott means please? I have not seen this term before. I tried googling it and found a company that sells vending machines so I am still unsure what it covers.
answered Nov 5, 2017 by Lynda Crackett G2G6 Pilot (290,140 points)
Lynda it goes into historical detail on that Earldom of Scotland book that is linked to the page on the Norwegian or Norse that took over British Isles, that is term Nor-scott is quite improper I found out anyway
I grew up just south of the England/Scotland border, I have lived for 4 years in Scotland and 30 years in Norway and I have never come across the term Nor-Scott or even Nor-Scot. Is it used in a source or have you just made it up to try to explain Viking invasions?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoto-Norman

well I was a little off on the name but this is what I meant the proper term Scoto-Norman
I believe Scoto-Norman would or *should* refer more to ethnicity. The Norse certainly did not "take over" the British Isles. They invaded and settled in some parts of Scotland; specifically, the Highlands, the Northern Isles, and far northern mainland. However, they never gained power elsewhere in Scotland. Also, Viking and Norman are not the same thing.

When Vikings (both Norwegians and Danes) invaded northern France, they did not displace the native French, nor did all the northern French marry Vikings. In fact, Y-DNA results of the Norman Surname Y-DNA Project has nearly 40 men with Celtic Y-DNA and 50 men with Nordic Y-DNA.

Then when William the Conqueror invaded England, he brought not only his own Norman army but also troops from Flanders, which is now split between NE France and SW Belgium.

So, it should never be assumed that the people that came to be called Normans were all of Viking descent, and neither did the Norse control all of the British Isles or even all of Scotland.
That's true, they are in fact different agreed. you could not have put that historical context any better for the good sake of breaking it down. nicely put,I'm going to note that on he pageXD.
Several of the Scottish Clans when traced back to the period of roughly 1100 and earlier tend to be much heavier in Nordic blood, and can even be followed directly to Norsemen.  The Maxwell Clan is a good example.
+4 votes
Hi Troy. The years you list are the Renaissance and early Georgian periods, while the Medieval period is identified by the People of Medieval Scotland website as including the years 1093-1314. The PoMS site is a project teamed by 21 professors and other professionals from the University of Glasgow and King's College London. They are supported by 23 advisors from various other universities as well as Scotland's National Archives. The PoMS URL is http://www.poms.ac.uk.

There is also a period called Late Medieval, which extends into the 15th century but relates primarily I believe to art, probably because the popularity of medieval art survived the more historically recognized medieval era.
answered Nov 5, 2017 by Loretta Layman G2G6 Mach 1 (15,210 points)
edited Nov 5, 2017 by Loretta Layman
Thank you lorreta "NOTED" that is indeed important and I will add the link to that on the page with a descrription about that Nor_scott thing Linda. I must have missed a section for that to get deleted. They are the Norwegian people took over the upper parts of the British Isles as Orkney,sandwick,Kirkhess,Sandy and much more terrain
See my comment above Troy. Still not clear for me whether it is a term you have found or just your own name for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoto-Norman

this what I meant, sorry about that.
You're welcome Troy.
+1 vote

I found a profile of interest to be checked into. This the is kind stuff i'm talking about; XD Sur name Stewart is all over these tax Documents below.Especially the volumes of Orkney and Sanwick

 (Sir Walter "1st Lord Scott of Buccleuch" Scott)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Scott-8321

  • Land tax rolls of Scotland 1645-1831

https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/land-tax-rolls-1645-1831

answered Nov 5, 2017 by Troy Smith G2G6 Mach 4 (43,030 points)
edited Nov 5, 2017 by Troy Smith
Hey Linda it looks like the above profile has the Currs you were looking for perhaps?
+1 vote

Hi Troy the beginning time period of your range falls into the pre-1500 initiative here on WikiTree and much falls into the pre-1700s initiative.  We have created an annotated pre-1500 source page because many books covering that time period are not reliable and were written by men paid to make a family look like it had noble lines so the first thing to do is look at the sources you are using and recognize some may be highly suspect.  

Here is a list of sources on WikiTree's source page that are known to be fraudulent or highly suspect:  

  • WikiTree free space containing a compilation of known fraudulent family trees and the genealogists that fabricated them.
  • Royalty for Commoners, by Roderick W. Stuart. Seemingly authoritative and similar in structure to Magna Carta Sureties and Ancestral Roots, this publication is filled with unproven speculation, and disproved lines. Do not use.

Conversely there are some really good sites like http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/  this takes you to the 15th century

the POMs mentioned above are well researched and generally reliable.

 http://www.rps.ac.uk/  Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707   Records from 1235, show records in original Latin, French, Scots, and Modern English translation, or both side by side. Browse by reign or use Advanced Search.

I will take a look at your page and see if I know anything else about sources you have listed...   just remember for this time period, just because it is a book or in print does not make it true.  Fraudulent genealogy was big business then.  

answered Nov 5, 2017 by Laura Bozzay G2G6 Pilot (285,590 points)
yes mam i'm on your side all the way, those tax records I listed are most certainly legit though, are they not? that profile I just looked up because I had got a lead from trying to figure certain code names of the mid 17th century scotch Earls.they consistently change they're name in legitimate  tax documents. I'm not gonna mess with these profiles without coordination.
off had those profile managers last names ring a bell,(Broughton they could be related to Boughton? just throwing around a brain storm for now.
thank you for the resources XD

I did a quick look at the sources you listed and they seemed to be fine on Nov 5.  Obviously someone could add a suspect one afterward.  And some suspect one contain both good and bad data so you have to verify everything from this time period because there were so many frauds and badly resourced books written.  We even found one written by the King's archivist. So even men who should have known better often succumbed to pressure to make a pedigree fit.   

I have a great x 8 (maybe 9) x grandfather named James Penny who married Christian Knight 7 Jul 1715, Rathen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. This according to Scotland's People site.  The marriage record does not give parent names or birth place details.  

I found a tree (all trees are suspect unless they come with sources that actually support what they show) that said James was born in Auchterarder which I think came from looking at Scotland's People for possible birth info on James.  There were 10 James Penny births from 1616-1699 of these 3 are good possibilities and probable.  3 more are possible but perhaps not probable.  The thing is, not everyone is listed in Scotland's People because you had to pay for an entry into the Old Parochial Registers and not everyone did.  Since most of the Penny line seems to be in the Registers it is likely he is in them.  Today the Penny farm is still located in Rathen it is called Hallmoss.  And as of my last checking it was still owned by a Penny descendant. 

The 3 probable are son of William Penny and Jean Cauthrie July 13, 1690 which makes him 25 at time of marriage  or age 30 at time of marriage son of James Penny / Jean Hepburne born January 10, 1685   both of these are in Auchterarder. which appears to be about 140 miles or so away from Rathen.    The other one is from Dundee which is even farther away he would be 34.

The next 3 are in 40s or 50s.  so I see those as maybe but not probable. However, James and Christian only had one son that I know of, named William born in 1717 in Rathen.  William married an unnamed woman and had 4 children we know about, James, William, Charles, and Anne.

I give this info just because naming conventions can at times be a clue.

Anyway, that is my question for your time period...that and who were the parents of his wife Christian Knight.  I have ruled out the family in Aberdeen who showed up in the 1690 poll tax as that Christian married someone else around the same date as mine married James. 

 

 

0 votes
Iḿ certainly interested  but wether i can contribute remains to be seen,  i will certainly follow your progress
answered Nov 6, 2017 by DerekvG
0 votes
Very Interested in Scotland especially around the area of Stirling since my ancestry came from this area.  The last name was spelled Stirling but later when the family went to Lisborn, Ireland the spelling became Sterling.  I am Harvey Sterling and just joined WikiTree so am trying to figure out how to put in my information for my parents and children etc.
answered 6 days ago by Harvey Sterling G2G Rookie (200 points)
0 votes

You might like to look at the Scotland Project and certainly its Resources page:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Scotland_Genealogy_Resources

Oh, and btw, perhaps you could correct your question's title? Please change 'Scottland' to 'Scotland'; it's making my brain sneeze...LOL

 

answered 5 days ago by Ros Haywood G2G6 Pilot (216,710 points)
0 votes
Pre-Reformation or indeed pre-1700 records for average families in Scotland barely exist. I have been researching Scottish families for 40 years and it is very difficult, even though I am now probably more aware of the more obscure sources than others.
answered 4 days ago by Gregory Lauder-Frost G2G1 (1,260 points)

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