why is an unsource profile tagged with a PPP? [closed]

+12 votes
559 views
this profile is attached to Pierre Deshaies as father, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, Pierre's parents are actually unknown.  There are no sources other than an Ancestry tree (not even linked).  There is no record of such a man in the colony on the date given for his death or for decades before and after, and Bécancour parish did not even exist at the time.
WikiTree profile: Alexandre de St-Cyr
closed with the note: PPP has been removed
in Policy and Style by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (346k points)
closed by Darlene Athey-Hill
Thanks Danielle ! The gedcom is on MyHeritage. Not much  more info, unfortunately.

Googling Collineau de Montaguerre, the only results that appear based on an actual source are from 19th century Guadeloupe. (actually spelled Collineau de Montaguère). Their descendants are still there.
Isabelle Rassinot ,  your comment " but unfortunately the pm is still active , sigh."  Iand the comments from Eva about " want a laug are the kind of nasty comments that make people leave wikitree.  Not everyone is as skilled as some people when they start.  This is such an arogant attitude.  You could care less that , that the pm could read this an be hurt by the comment.  If you don't like fix itit with out the nastiness.
Trudy, you misunderstood what Isabelle was saying, she was about to put a tag on the profile as ''uncertain existence'', but refrained from doing so BECAUSE the PM is active.  Which shows nice respect for that PM.  She sighs because the thing is still unsourced, and Collineau de Montaguerre profiles all over wikitree are proving to be pure inventions.
I'm sorry I offended you or anyone, Trudy. But you are right. I am 200% aware of my snobbish arrogance and lack of diplomatic skills. If the PM was not active, I would just disconnect the profile, label it as a fabrication (for reasons explained by Danielle above, and this one has 6 varied spouses) and get done with it. I would avoid doing that without prior communication. The issue has been settled though.
Wikitree is very big on communication and collaboration.  Have you contacted the pm. Given a chance for an explaination of why the profile is undocumented.  I have adopted profiles when I first started that were unsoused and incorrect and left them alone or ophaned them because try as I might I could not get colaboration on profiles I know are wrong.  I don't work on my Roach line at all because a very active member said " well I just won't attach
any of my Roach profile to your Roaches."   
    On the same line another member won't help to merge away a couple duplicates of a woman who is obviously the same person because details aren't the same.  Well communication and collaboration could clear up the mess in both cases.  My line could get connected to the tree but it is not going to happen because " I'm not in their league."  So I get pretty tired of the attitude.  I really don't care what the situation is.  Thank You for you response.
Danielle , I did not misunderstand.  The comment " If you want a laugh"  is a negitive comment about someone else's work.  I don't care what the situation is.  The comment " Unfortunately the pm is still active " is pretty self explanatory.  We are adults.  If someone has the time to comment on this thread , there is time to contact the pm and say " Hey , what can we do with this."
If you have tried to communicate and you're hitting a wall, you could file a mentor intervention request. For the record I did post a message asking for sources and hinting that the data was unlikely, and the profiles have since been disconnected by the PM. The profiles come from another site. I don't know how that works; never used Gedcom uploads, but I think these can be downloaded without reviewing the profiles one by one. So the PM ends up managing a weird profile and not the background information or skill to fix it. It is someone's work, but not probably not the PM's. And I still believe that this data had not enough merit to deserve being published in the first place. It was wrong to blame it on the PM however.
Trudy, the laugh in question is an ongoing situation with ''people'' named ''Collineau de Montaguerre'', or ''Inconnu Collineau de Montaguerre''.  Inconnu is French for unknown.  This weird woman is showing up all over the place as ancestress to all sorts of people, I have personally found one such that I had good sources that the woman's name was entirely different.  It's almost become a running joke.
The junk is all over the internet.  Nobody cares who imported it.  If they hadn't, somebody else would have.

Time was when WikiTree needed a lot of people to import a lot of junk in a hurry.  Those people got WikiTree off the ground.  But they have no reason to be touchy or possessive about the junk. They hadn't really worked on it.
hey now let's all mellow out here - of course there is junk - we all have seen a ton of junk and it is why we ended up here - but we need to think why it remains - there are those that began to do it and quit - maybe they died, maybe they got a job and did not have time - maybe their computer crashed and they had to start from scratch when they could afford a new one - maybe they just gave up - but those of us who did not - or came back have to just keep trying to fix it as best we can - if someone is diplomatic and gently educates others about how to improve the profiles they create I think we will end up with more people working with us - not against us

now I put up profiles that are not yet sourced correctly and I sure aim to get them all sourced - will I get every single one? Maybe not - but as I have cooperated with others I get many done for me by connecting up with cousins who have done that homework already and I can just verify with a few clicks and that one is done and good - on to the rest

I understand it can be quite frustrating - repeated wrong info drives us all nuts - but lets rise above and lift the ones who need lifting

4 Answers

+13 votes
Thanks for asking this question Danielle. I'd really like to see this profile sorted out, as well.

The profile has probably no connection to the Euro Aristo project other than that the last name was changed and the profile protected by a member of that project, back when the fashion was to protect last names as much as possible.

The presence of a "Collineau de Montaguerre" mother is an additional clue that the parents are imaginary at least.
by Isabelle Martin G2G6 Pilot (419k points)
I actually managed to correct at least one Collineau de Montaguerre to her correct name a while back, forget who it actually was, but Fichier origine had the ancestry of the immigrant concerned, no Collineau anywhere in there.  I actually found a site that deals exclusively with that name.  Will have to do a search to find it again.

Can't find the thing any more, but most of what comes up on a search is either Geni or Ancestry trees.
LOL, we're not the only ones asking the question on Collineau de Montaguerre, take a look at this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/6b73mw/collineau_de_montaguerre/
Yes and they're even referencing a Wikitree G2G post!  Note the conclusion:

"I would toss it, sorry".

But we don't do this on Wikitree. Those Collineau people are almost always the parents or grandparents of the last known (with reasonable confidence) ancestor of a branch. Not enough information to be able to "toss" them.
Most "genealogical events" -- birth, marriage, death -- must happen within one's lifetime.  But being sucked up into an error or fraud happens after one's death but really functions like a genealogical event!  For ever after, one's profile is impacted by the fact that someone gave you a false name or a false parent or a whole false genealogy.  Therefore even when a profile has been straightened out and the real events and relations are clear, it seems to me that some reference needs to be retained that "this person's history was affected by inclusion in the Collineau de Montaguerre legends", with a link to the category page.     

All this has nothing to do with any people I'm tracking, but it's certainly fascinating to follow!
Exactly - which is why the"Frauds and Fabrications" subcategories can and should include profiles of real people, not fabricated themselves but impacted by frauds. It does not always work this way though.

The Charles Augustus Fernald Fabrications category for example, does include Renald Fernald, the PGM ancestor on whom the fabricated ancestors were added. But in theory it should also include a lot of other profiles for impacted people: Charles VIII, Anne de Bretagne, Gaspard de Coligny, Jehan Fernel, and more.
actually, I've ''tossed'' a few of them who were unconnected to any parent or child, just a spouse in the same case.  If you're actually working on them all, there is at least one of them that has the link to the site I had found that seemed to be at the root of it all, although I may be mistaken on that.
Is it the "Breese family" site with ancestors that go back to year 50 A.D. ?

:D
no, have seen that and that's not what is was, was specific to Collineau de Montaguerre

Just wondering if Montaguerre, was meant to be Montagu. 

Yesterday, found De is being used in the LNAB (i.e. De_Montagu).  

According to Name Fields for European Aristocrats it is correct to use De Montagu in CLN, but De is incorrect when used in the LNAB, such as De_Montagu. 

[https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats#Last_Names_at_Birth]

Thank you, for working to make WikiTree more accurate! 

I did not think of this, but it's a good idea. Montagu/Montaigu are well-known names that may explain why this "Collineau de Montaguerre" is so popular. I have never found one with a serious source attached to it.

You are correct that "Montagu" should be preferred to "de Montagu" in the Last name at Birth, for members of a noble house anyway.

Not sure about those articles in other languages. In France you see the "de" coming on and off until the Revolution (when, understandably, "de" tends to disappear altogether, only to reappear - consistently, this time - after the Restoration) so I almost never include it. I understand the use of "von" in German, for instance, was consistent earlier on.
+11 votes

It may be that the Quebecois Project meant to PPP Pierre and the father profile got the PPP instead. You may want to add Quebecois to your tags. They will probably want to PPP the son.

by Deb Durham G2G Astronaut (1.0m points)
I'm a little concerned/curious about the bunch of people listed as spouse on the mom's page. I know I don't have a horse in this race. I hope it's cleaned up. Seriously. That profile is really messed up. As is the mom's.
Profile was apparently taken from Geneanet without examining it. Some sloppy genealogy, to be sure.
+10 votes
Another thread started yesterday and revolving around a similar problem:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/499544/guillaume-jean-langlois-and-jeanne-millet-who-were-they-

Langlois-52 also has an unexplained project protection with plenty of unsourced, probably imaginary connections.
by Isabelle Martin G2G6 Pilot (419k points)
edited by Isabelle Martin
+3 votes
The profile manager, Phil, has removed both parents.

I will remove the PPP on this profile.
by Guy Constantineau G2G6 Pilot (350k points)

Guy,

I believe the issue isn't with the parents on that profile, it is with whether the profile represents a real person and with the fact that it is attached as a parent to Pierre (Deshayes) Deshaies whose parents are unknown, The parents of Pierre should be removed and Pierre is the one who probably needs protecting. 

I agree with Deb. Removing the parents on "Alexander" is a step in the right direction, but Pierre Deshaies should become protected once the parents are removed.

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