Are you sure it is Lucy Jane?

Question

I used to think Lucy Jane was a contender, however, I will explain why I doubt this. If you run searches on the FreeBMD for Lucy Jane Hirst from 1838 to 1900, Births, you will find 3 possibilities - an 1852, 1859, and 1875. The 1852 seems good untill you run another search for Lucy Jane Hirst from 1838 to 1900, Marriages, now you find 2 possibilities - 1873 and 1880. The 1852 birth and 1873 marriage both are Huddersfield events. The 1859 birth and 1880 marriage are Sheffield events. Clearly it is likely that your Lucy Jane Hirst of 1852 must have married in 1873. My John Castle & Lucy Hirst marriage remember is 1869.

What further discredits Lucy Jane Hirst as a possibility is when you do marriage searches for John Castle (given name & surname) and just Lucy (given name) between 1838 and 1900 - in this case we get 5 results only one of which is our 1869 marriage of John Castle and Lucy Hirst. You can run a marriage search for Lucy Hirst (given name & surname) and just John (given name) and you get 8 results - once again our John Castle & Lucy Hirst are included for 1869.

Now, if you run a marriage search for Lucy Jane only and John only, all given names and no surnames, you get nothing at all out of 498 possibilities, that work with Huddersfield and 1869 both.

If I run a birth search for Lucy Hirst, from 1850 to 1855, I get 7 possibilities... with just Lucy Jane turning up in 1852.

I believe if you follow my line of reasoning here, you should be persuaded that Lucy Jane is not the correct Lucy Hirst I am looking for that married John castle in 1869. Lucy jane married in 1873.

I appreciate very much your quick response and attempt at resolving this mystery. However, I am beginning to suspect that my Lucy Hirst may have been an orphaned child at Lydgate, Wooldale, which is where it says Lucy resided at time of marriage on the marriage certificate. There is no father mentioned, no signature. No mother either. Just a blank with a line through it. If that is the case, she could have been from anywhere in Yorkshire and I may never find out who her parents actually were.

Comments

My reasoning in my answer to the first question was very simple - '''you said that Lucy Hirst was born in 1852'''.  I don't have access to your research - only what you choose to share.
As I said in my answer "likely that the only one in Huddersfield in 1852 is her" ...of course I can't be sure and given the additional information that you now share, I agree with you that it is unlikely.
If you provide LESS than all that you know, then you should expect us to have LESS success than you have had.
I'm sorry if that seems blunt but it's the reality of genealogy - I will do some more records checking using the info you've provided and get back to you shortly...

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Hi Allen, I appreciate very much your assistance with this problem. However, had I written out every method and deduction I've made to show you how and why every possiblility available can or cannot be discredited, these posts would be unbearabley long. I apologize if it seems like I withheld all the information that you believed you required to make a more in depth assessment, but I did not. I actually had to run all those searches I described in order to either verify or refute Lucy Jane as a possibility. Now I have read your responses, and thank you so much for investing your time and effort, I will now re-check your arguments and information, conduct some searches of my own to either support or refute your suggestions, and will get back to you asap.

Answer 1

Hi again anonymous,  You mention the BMD in your reasoning but not the censuses so I guess that you may not have them so below are those for Lucy after her marriage.  As you can see, although the names vary slightly she always seems to be reporting her birth as the local Wooldale area, which leads me to another strategy for isolating info about her birth but more of that in comments below the census returns...

1871 Census...

CASTLE, John Head M 24 1847 Kirkburton,Yorkshire

CASTLE, Lucy Wife F 19 1852 Kirkburton,Yorkshire

CASTLE, Hugh Son M 0 1871 Kirkburton,Yorkshire

CASTLE, John Grandfather M 68 1803 Kirkburton,Yorkshire

Piece: 4350 Folio: 60 Page: 12 Registration District: Huddersfield

Civil Parish: Wooldale Address: Water Row New Mill, Wooldale County: Yorkshire

 

1881 Census...

CASTLE, John Head Married M 34 1847 Worsted Weaver Fulstone, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Lucy Wife Married F 29 1852 Holmfirth, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Hugh Son Single M 11 1870 Scholar Wooldale, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Frederick W  Son  Single  M 9 1872 Scholar Wooldale, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Sam Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar Wooldale, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Annie Daughter  Single  F 4 1877 Scholar Wooldale, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Luther Son Single M 2 1879 Wooldale, Yorkshire

CASTLE, Harriet Daughter  Single  F 0 1881 Wooldale, Yorkshire

Piece: 4372 Folio: 77 Page: 14 Registration District: Huddersfield

Civil Parish: Wooldale Address: Fearnley Lane, Wooldale County: Yorkshire (West riding)

 

 

 

Comments

1891 Census...
CASTLE, John Head Married M 44 1847  Worsted Weaver Scholes, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Lucy Wife Married F 39 1852 Scholes, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Fredrick Wm Son  Single  M 19 1872  Fulling Miller Scholes, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Sam Son Single M 17 1874  Cloth Finisher Scholes, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Luther Son Single M 12 1879  Scholar Scholes, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Harriet Daughter  Single  F 10 1881  Scholar Scholes, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Herman Son M 4 1887 Scholes, Yorkshire
Piece: 3559 Folio: 85 Page: 1 Registration District: Huddersfield
Civil Parish: Wooldale Address: Scholes Road, Wooldale, Scholes County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

1901 Census...
CASTLE, John Head Married M 54 1847  Woollen Weaver
CASTLE, Lucy Wife Married F 49 1852 N K, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Sam Son Single M 27 1874  Cloth Finisher Fulstone, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Luther Son Single M 23 1878  Woollen Spinner Fulstone, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Harriet Daughter  Single  F 20 1881  Woollen Healder Fulstone, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Hermon Son M 14 1887  Woollen Twister Fulstone, Yorkshire
CASTLE, Emily Daughter   F 9 1892 Fulstone, Yorkshire
Piece: 4097 Folio: 62 Page: 3 Registration District: Huddersfield
Civil Parish: Fulstone Address: Red Row, Fulstone County: Yorkshire (West riding)

1911 Census...
CASTLE, Lucy Head Widow F 59 1852  Farming Yorkshire Holmfirth
CASTLE, Herman Son Single M 24 1887  Farmers Son Working On Farm Yorkshire Holmfirth
CASTLE, Emily Daughter  Single  F 19 1892  Worsted Weaver Yorkshire Hepworth
RG number: RG14 Piece: 26236 Reference: RG14PN26236 RG78PN1517 RD495 SD4 ED6 SN13
Registration District: Huddersfield Sub District: New Mill Enumeration District: 6
Parish: Fulstone Address: Redrow New Mill County: Yorkshire (West riding)

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Apart from the BMD another resource worth checking is Family Search's IGI which you can use very effectively by making use of Hugh Wallis' superb batch reference (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/) that provides the association between English parishes and batch numbers.
Checking a parish map of West Riding of Yorkshire (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Maps/WRYParishes.gif) it seems likely that the birth of Lucy would have ocurred in Almondbury or Kirkburton parishes and on checking we find that these parishes are covered by batches as listed below..

Almondbury is covered by:
C017122      1557-1667              M017126      1813-1835
C017123      1668-1726 & 1761-1769      M017127      1766-1773
C017124      1770-1789
C017125      1790-1805
C017126      1813-1835
C093451   1792-1837
P017121      1727-1761 & 1771-1774
Specific church batches are below:
Broadlands Baptist    C093241      1809-1838
Deadmanstone Wesleyan    C079981      1835-1837
Holy Trinity        C071571      1829-1846
Near            C093451   1792-1837
Westgate Wesleyan    C075761      1812-1832

Kirkburton is covered by:
C009722      1813-1837      M009722      1813-1837
C093451      1792-1837
C395219
P009721      1540-1711
Specific church batches are below:
Dagley Lane Independent           C088671      1816-1837
Lydgate English Presbyterian      C088691      1743-1840
Upper Chapel Shelley Independent  C088681      1795-1837

(M#### batches are marriages, C#### christening & P#### mixed)

Even if we can't isolate Lucy's birth in the IGI (because of years covered its not likely) it may be possible to use these references for other research in the area AND by referring to the records of the churches in these parishes it may be possible to find out more about orphans or foundlings in the area.

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Hi again Allen, I actually do have access to the census's. I just didn't think they were necessary to eliminate Lucy Jane as a candidate, so I didn't feel it necessary to mention them. I am finding your findings interesting though and thank you again for your help. I will get back to you.

Answer 2

 

Hi again anonymous, as Lucy was very consistent with her age reporting in censuses including 1911 (when she would have completed the return herself) there are only three possible recordings of her in the 1861 census - one in Skipton, one in Halifax and this one in Huddersfield (just 4kms north west of Wooldale)...

 

HIRST, Charles Head Widower M 40 1821 Cotton Bleacher Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, Jonathan Son Unmarried M 19 1842 Woollen Traser Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, Lydia Daughter  Unmarried F 17 1844 House Keeper Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, Richard Son Unmarried M 15 1846 Cotton Wood Turner Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, James Son M 13 1848 Woollen Piecer Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, Lucy A Daughter F 10 1851 Cotton Thread Winder Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, Elizabeth Daughter F 7 1854 Scholar Meltham, Yorkshire

HIRST, David Son M 1 1860 Meltham, Yorkshire

Piece: 3245 Folio: 77 Page: 22 Registration District: Huddersfield

Civil Parish: South Crosland Address: High Brow, South Crosland County: Yorkshire (West riding)

 

Again, this is not proof just a possibility and don't foget that there may be more clues on her death certificate...

Name: CASTLE, Lucy

Registration district: Huddersfield

County: Yorkshire

Year of registration: 1925

Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec

Age at death: 73

Volume no: 9A

Page no: 356

 

BTW In 1911 she reports (in lovely flowing script) that she has had 10 children of whom 4 had died.

 

Good Luck