The origin of Judith Fortier

+7 votes
407 views
Here's a bit of a puzzle I stumbled upon when I was adding people onto my main tree. Meet Judith Fortier. She was an average woman living in....What's that? You say her profile has her being born in 1595 Delaware when Delaware wasn't even THOUGHT of?! Well, color me shocked.

I want to edit this profile but I don't know the facts about this lady. Other places have her being born MUCH later in 1635. Still in Delaware though.

She was apparently married to Jacques Martin https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Martin-5601

And supposedly died November 24th, 1654 in Île de Ré, Charente-Maritime, Nouvelle-Aquitaine, France

I'm not saying this is impossible. But, this profile is making my head hurt a little. If someone wants to take a crack at this be my guest. I'm confused. Not sure how I am gonna go about adding her. Or if I even want to.

I am connected to her. THAT I know. It's through their son, Jacques. We got a mystery to solve and this one hurts my brain a little. It also should be noted that even if she was born in 1635, she'd STILL be younger than her son, Jacques who was born around 1612. This family needs some work done.
WikiTree profile: Judith Fortier
in Genealogy Help by Chris Ferraiolo G2G6 Pilot (756k points)
edited by Chris Ferraiolo

4 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer
You have a totally unsourced item there, her purported descendant is Joachim Martin :  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Martin-5605  who has a fichier origine, only his parents are named.  I think it's another Ancestry mash-up, purest fantasy.  Tag French roots.  His father Jacques Martin has been tied to 2 wives, but Fichier does NOT specify that they are one and the same man, they just note the existence of the marriage and children.  Jacques Martin is one of the most common names around.
by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (647k points)
selected by Chris Ferraiolo
Thanks, Dani!

I haven't the family's details in because it seemed a little fishy to me. That's why I asked people here for help.  I have Joachim in the main tree and Jacques. No mother.

French roots have been tagged. Not sure where to go from here.
hurry up and wait, may have to detach her totally.
+3 votes

Haven't confirmed, and it's a profile that needs some cleaning, but I did find this as a lead (and with too many siblings to list):

Judith Fortier
1595–1654
BIRTH 1595 • St Martins, France
DEATH 24 NOV 1654 • Isle, Aube, Champagne-Ardenne, France

Parents:

Spouse

Children

Spouse & Children

Many siblings

by Bruce Codère G2G6 Mach 1 (18.3k points)
Judith Fortier with parents Guillaume Langlois and Jeanne Millet?  Oh boy, what a mix-up.  Not even the same family name.

See:  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Langlois-52  for that couple.  Eeeek!
Wow....Looks like I stumbled upon a mess.
The parents are most definitely NOT Guillaume Langlois and Jeanne Millet.  Please! Not another of these horrible conflated collapsed mixups. Not all emigrants were related before emigrating! (Sorry for flying off the handle).

The daughter Mary Ann Janvier looks suspicious too. Except in areas with specific traditions (like Béarn), in France the family names were regularly transmitted from father to children starting MUCH earlier than the 16th century.
Y'know I think I actually heard the screams all the way across the planet.....

It's okay to rant and rave. I am sure that's not against the rules. =)

Learning a fair bit about French customs here. This is great. Thanks, Belle! =D
:D

It indeeds look like an artificial conflation of two emigrant families.

If you follow the son Jacques, his son Joachim has a good source: Fichier Origine (http://www.fichierorigine.com/recherche?numero=242800). No idea how all the people who are not mentioned in Fichier Origine come from... From experience, I suspect they'd be all bogus OR borrowed from other families.

If you follow the daughter Mary Ann (ha ha, as if a girl born in l'île de Ré in 1635 could have been called "Ann"), she is set up a ancestress of a huguenot emigrant. Where are the sources?

I wish I knew. As it stands right now this is what I have for the family:

Catherine Martin.

Parents: Joachim-Paul Martin and Anne Charlotte Petit.

Grandparents: Jacques Martin, Luce Chaslut, Pierre Petit and Catherine Desnaguez.. I added in her parents.

The rest aside from this train wreck are unknown.

So changing Chaslut to Chalut on my tree. We need someone to change it on here though because that's where I got it.

Chaslut and Chalut are variants, don't know that one is more correct than the other.  Lots of names in early days have an S before another letter, like Mesnard morphed into Ménard.
Okay. I was not sure. Thanks. So, I think we should probably cut the parents off.
Joachim Martin has a duplicate, needs merging. The parents and grandparents on Anne Petit's side are OK, there are sources. But Joachim's grandparents are  completely unsupported at this point. His two siblings are sourced.

(I did change the last name of his brother François to Martin... Several years after Danielle's comment, no harm in being a bit high-handed, I hope).
Better late than never. =D
+2 votes
I know this is an old thread but I came across this profile and it struck me odd too! I noticed that if you squint your eyes "Delaware" kind of looks like"Ile de Ra" which is the city she died in as well as the same city her husband was born in and died in. Maybe a location assigned by spellcheck :)  Just saying!
by Robert Charpentier G2G Crew (390 points)

hi cousin

Nice one, could also be the fact that Ancestry often is geographically challenged.  laugh

+1 vote

Here is a proof of existence of Judith Fortier, wife of Jacques Martin and mother of Marie and Jacques Martin: the (protestant) marriage record of Marie Martin Martin-10034 and Jean Sallé Sallee-313 on 11 Apr 1668 in Saint-Martin-de-Ré. Saint-Martin-de-Ré, registre paroissial BMS 1668-1681, AD17 cote I 246-263, image 10/445 (bottom left).

There are three different Jacques Martin named in the record (as Danielle noted, it is one of the most common names): the father of the bride, her brother, and a brother-in-law of the groom.

The death date for Jacques Martin Martin-5601 is also correct and belongs to the husband of Judith Fortier (she is not named, but their son-in-law Jean Sallé is, and the trade also matches - chapelier, hat-maker). It is on image 86/445 of the same register.  (bottom left).

So the two Jacques Martin hat-makers, Judith Fortier, Marie Martin and Jean Sallé belong to the same family group, that of the huguenot emigrants.

But it is very unlikely that Jacques Martin husband of Luce Chaslut and of Marie Bonneau (who may even be two different persons), who is not from Île-de-Ré and whose children are baptized in catholic churches, is the same person as Jacques Martin son of Judith Fortier.

by Julien Cassaigne G2G6 Mach 6 (66.3k points)

merveilleux ce que vous trouvez Julien.  laugh

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