John England marked his son's apprenticeship papers. He does not appear in Censuses. Any ideas how to find him?

Question

James became an apprentice Cork Cutter to John Clark on 20.08.1856 in Bethnal Green, London.

Later in life, James kept a shop in Camberwell, London.

Comments

James didn't keep a shop in Camberwell, that's a different person.

Can you explain what first linked you to James, in other words, what piece of evidence you know is definitely your ancestor.

There are several James and John Englands in London at the time and I fear some mixing has happened.

---

James appears as father on my grandfather's birth certificate,  James was also Percy England's father - and Percy was my great uncle.

My father found James apprentice paper among my cousin Phyllis' papers after her death. Phyllis was Percy's daughter.

This particular James had a shop in Camberwell and described himself as a master grocer on various censuses. He was illiterate, so his wife Alice probably filled in the forms - she was a Sunday School teacher.

John England is a shadow. There has certainly been a lot of mixing,  Thanks for the comment, is my family tree public or have I got my settings wrong, so that it is private?

---

No your settings are fine but as I was going through the census records it seemed to me that the Bethnal Green James and Camberwell one were clearly distinct. I'm at work now so I'll check again tonight. I could be wrong.

Answer 1

Hi Graham

Are You sure that John was born in England?

The 1851 census lists a John England, born 1825 in Ireland, living in Carter Street, Aldgate (now known as Clothier Street, London EC3, about a mile from Bethnal Green where James England was apprenticed in 1856) with his spouse Margaret Brown, born 1815 in Ireland.

The record is here https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXD-542

Presumably this couple were not formally married. They are likely to have fled the Irish potato famine of the 1840s. Margaret is ten years older than John, and so it is possible that she's a widow.

From here I'm going to fantasise. If Margaret is a widow, she may have a child by her first husband, who is living with grandparents or other relatives, while Margaret 'settles in' with the new man in her life. If that was the case, then it's not beyond possibility that young James has moved in with mum and stepdad by 1856, and has taken the surname of his stepfather.

All conjecture, of course, but maybe worth further investigation?

Good luck with your research!

Dave

Comments

Thanks for the suggestion.

Answer 2

If your James England is the one, then his father John married Caroline Mould Q2 1839 ayt St Luke Islington - he was a velvet weaver? his father was Samuel, a silversmith.

But I can't find anything in the censuses.

Comments

Sounds rather upmarket for someone who apprentices his son to a cork cutter. James was 12 when he started the apprenticeship.

But thanks for the idea that they could be living in another part of London.

I wonder if someone living in a boarding house missed the census.

---

But they are the correct parents and grandfather of your James England-2711. There is no doubt about that. His mother's maiden name at his birth in 1844 was Mould and the marriage cert. is also available.

So does that mean that England-2711 is wrong?

Answer 3

Right I've cracked it. James is the son of John and Caroline, grandson of Samuel.

In the 1861 census he appears for some odd reason as RICHARD. But he is son of John and Caroline and is a cork cutter's apprentice. Both parents are silk weavers. John aged 55, Caroline aged 46.

They do seem to have escaped the 1851 census.

Everything else marriages etc you have about him are correct up to 1901. Can't find him after that.

Comments

Looks like Caroline born 1818 to Richard and Sarah.

John England baptised 1803 to Samuel and Frances.