Can someone tell me whether haplogroup r-m405 can be traced to north Ireland or lowland Scots? Thank you

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in Genealogy Help by Roxanna Pentland G2G Crew (470 points)
retagged by Michael Stills

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It's entirely possible, simply due to the possible age of the SNP mutation. Here's a nifty chart of the relationship of the high-level subclades of haplogroup R1b (look for the label S21/U106): https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.png.

But M405 is not distinctly Irish/Scottish. It arose near the end of the Early Bronze Age or the start of the Middle Bronze Age. In the British Isles, M405 is found in greater concentrations in southern and western eastern [oops] England, the territory occupied by the Germanic Saxons and Angles following the departure of the Romans in the 5th century. More distinctly Scandinavian clans occupied Northern Ireland and eventually supplanted the Picts and populated what is today's Scotland (additional DNA background about that here).

From https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml:

"The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106 or M405). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards."

From 23andMe is this interesting observation: "If your lineage carries haplogroup R-M405, for example, you and King Henry IV of France can trace your paternal lines back to the father of haplogroup R-M405." Henry IV was the first French king from the House of Bourbon, a branch of the Capetians.

by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (441k points)
selected by Lucas Van de Berg
So R-M405 is the living Bourbons, and is "confirmed" back to the common ancestor Louis XIII, by 34/35 out of 38.

The genetic distances are incorrect as given - 3 pairwise comparisons can never produce 2, 4 and 3.  The total should be even.

23andMe reckon they can predict beyond the common ancestor - but they only go one generation further.

And the claim to have matched the head and the hanky by DNA was total junk, because they got so little DNA they could have matched a banana.

I didn't go back and re-read the article(s), but just a note that "genetic distance" as applied to y_STR and Y-SNP testing really has nothing to do with degrees of relationship, unlike autosomal DNA. The Y is always haploidy, hemizygous, and escapes from crossing over. So it's not at all uncommon to see a pair of 7th cousins, for example--who are separated by 16 birth events and who almost certainly wouldn't be genealogical matchable to the 6g-grandparents--be a Y-STR genetic distance of zero at 37 markers.

The amount of DNA extracted as viable and some of the testing choices, though, are not state of the art. DNA processing of ancient remains has come a long way in five years. Maybe someone will decide to do this sort of study again on Henry IV and, er, finally put that head to rest. <cough>

Right about now, Roxanna, who originally asked the question, is wondering "What are these people going on and on about? I wanted to know about Ireland and Scotland." Sorry, Roxanna.  :-)

Thank you so much for your answer.  I am new to studying dna.  

To follow up, would it be safe to consider that they (M-405) came through Scotland to Ireland?  The family name is Pentland and we can trace them back to the mid 1700s in North Ireland.  As well, they self identified themselves as Scotch-Irish.

Could we conclude that path?

Thanks again

M405 is estimated to be about 4,800 years old.  https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

I don’t suspect anyone yet knows how and when it got to Ireland.

You need to join a Pentland surname DNA study, if there is one, or start one.

The aim would be to collect results from a lot of other Pentlands and figure out which branches are most closely related, hoping to get hints about when and where their common ancestors lived.

Difficult though.  Scots migrated south continually and most Scottish surnames are found in England.  So if you found indications of an ancestor in England, you wouldn't know if you descended from him directly or from his brother or cousin who stayed in Scotland.

What they said.  :-)  It's exceedingly difficult to draw anything other than very broad conclusions about the origins and migratory paths of haplogroups, either yDNA or mtDNA. They're simply too old. With yDNA NextGen testing like FTDNA's BigY, we're getting closer to identifying Y-SNPs that may be indicative of location when bifurcation occurs (bifurcation is when the mutation of a SNP first happens and a split from an older haplogroup occurs, forming a new one). But to bring these results into genealogical relevance--meaning to put them in the timeframe of adoption of surnames, in England circa 1100 AD--you have to dive down literally dozens of tested SNPs below M405 in the hierarchy.

And I may have given an incorrect impression with the first answer. I almost always (just like that) try to hedge my bets because the quasi-scientist in me knows that few things are absolute and most anything is possible. I said it was entirely possible your Pentland surname M405 could be traced back to Northern Ireland or Scotland because it is possible. That it was an early arrival in that region--early as in BCE years--is less likely.

M405--also know as U106 and S21: exact same SNP (or "reference cluster") just different names--bifurcated (you just knew I'd work that in again) from L151, which in turn, and in order, came from L51, L23, and M269. The yDNA phylogenetic tree of haplogroups is hierarchical, and it's also chronological. M405 is newer than L151, which is newer than L51, and so on. Today, M269 is estimated to be present in 80% or more of males in Ireland, and 73% of males in Scotland. M405, though, not so much. It's in about 6% of the Irish population and 12% of the Scottish. Here's a heat-map of M405/U106/S21 from Eupedia:

In the British Isles, you can see that its saturation is very much southeast to northwest. This is consistent with the arrival of the Saxons and the Angles in England following the departure of the Roman army. From the late 5th century through the Battle of Hastings in 1066, the Anglo-Saxons ruled over most of England, for a period grudgingly sharing it with the Norse during what's referred to as the Danelaw. Neither the Romans nor the Anglo-Saxons ever made much headway into what we now call Scotland, and virtually zippo into Ireland. The Irish Sea isn't very wide but, in part due to the "you ain't conquerin' me" spirit of the Welsh, neither of those occupiers ever gained a reliable enough foothold on England's west coast to consider invading Ireland.

Conversely, the recent DNA study of Irish populations I mentioned before showed the exact opposite saturation of Irish genomes. Every sample tested in Scotland showed elements of Irish background (the Irish supplanted the Picts in Scotland--in fact the early Roman term for the Irish was Scoti--and the Irish settled Scotland, not the other way around), and the Irish/Celtic DNA was just as clearly saturated west to east, from high concentrations in Ireland (no duh) to just a smattering toward England's eastern coast.

Historically, it seems Ireland became home to peoples who traveled there from the far western coasts of Europe and, later, by the Viking visitors who sailed around the north of Scotland. In fact, it was the Norse who founded the towns of Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Wexford, and others sometime in the early 900s. It was the Angles and the Saxons who carried the M405 SNP, not the peoples who occupied Ireland. If an Anglo-Saxon carrying M405 settled in Ireland, it likely was after 1175 and the Treaty of Windsor, and maybe even more likely after 1594 and the Nine Years War. Bottom line is that your M405 line could be very old in Ireland, but it probably didn't arrive there early, and it has remained a small minority of the population. It's origins are more clearly Germanic and its highest saturations today are in the Netherlands and northwest Germany.

Hi, I'm from Moscow in Russia and I've M-405, which is according to local genetics is rare for Russians, only about 5%, but ever way it's typically Russian marker, cause all R1b originally were from the region of Ural and then went through modern day territory of Russia and some stay and others went to North Africa (and some became pharaons) and others went to Western Europe. Most of Russian Nobility were R1b including Romanov's Royal Family. There's a lot of M-405 in Holland & Belgaim, at the same region where Russian Peter the Great and his companions were staying & those guys never spent a night without a dame. So, in theory, M-405's there can also be their desendents. What do you think about that?
Thank you so much.  Your explanation is very helpful.

Another question - any recommendations for videos or media to learn more about   dna and genetics?

Thanks,

Roxanna
I recommend www.isogg.org to learn about genetic genealogy.

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