Questions surrounding the lineage of Noblett: Peter Noblett as father of Francis, Richard, William, & John

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I'd like to open discussion of the Noblet/Noblett/Noblit lineage outlined below.  I suspect that much of this tree is conflated or created.

The line in question is the Noblett/Noblet/Noblit/Noblitt/Noblette etc., that begins with Jacques de Noblette (1033 - 1092).  He was allegedly an officer for William the Conqueror in the invasion of England.  He and his brother were awarded estates; he in Normandy, his brother in England.

In the French source documents and volumes, I can find evidence individuals in this line through to descendant Jacques Noblett (1532 - 1574).  According to internet legend, Jacques embraced Protestantism and became a Huguenot.

There is also evidence for his offspring:

Lancelot Noblett (abt. 1555 - abt. 1603), and son,

Robert Noblet, b. abt. 1582.

Here is where this line appears to end:

Robert Noblet, esquire, seigneur de Taincourt, died after his father, 1618, whose posterity is extinct; married Valence de Moru, daughter of Geoffroy de Moru, warden of Chateau Thierry.[1]

On Wikitree, and elsewhere on the net, we see that the line continues from Robert.  From here, I will put an asterisk next to each profile that I'm seeking information for:

Claude Noblett (1603 - 1684)

Mathieu Jacques Noblet (1628 - 1653)

Jacques Gabrielle De Noblet De Noblett

The legend continues:

Lord Gabrielle Jacques de Noblet, moved from France to England. It is not known whether his father remained there or went to Ireland, but [his son *Peter Noblett] Peter definitely relocated there in 1697 to claim an estate awarded the family by James II. His sojourn constituted a period of less than thirty years before his four sons decided to migrate to the English Colonies in America.

That brief period of residence in the Emerald Isle leads some to label the Noblet / Noblitt family forebears as being Irishmen, which is inaccurate. The ancestral heritage of their Norman-French lineage remained unbroken during an extended period of 650 years. However, some Noblets stayed on in Ireland, with descendants living there today; and it is to the family's credit that Noblets remaining in Ireland have had a great history and maintained a respected place in Irish society.

Peter's 4 sons, *John, *Francis, *Richard, & *William, born in Ireland then migrated to the colonies (Pennsylvania) in the early 18th century.  I can find ample evidence of the 4 brothers and texts written at the turn of the 19th century portray the 4 brothers as the patriarchs of their particular families with no mention of who their father was.  Sometime in the last decades, some new research was done or ancestry fabricated that includes their father Peter, Grandfather Jacques and stories of refugee Huguenots and Irish land grants from the King of England.

Note: for the sake of brevity, I did not include all of the references here, they can be found in the sources and research notes for John Noblett who is linked in the paragraph above.

I'd like to ask if anyone has any information on the above individuals who are outside of the available published texts.  The French sources I've read say that the Noblett line of Normandy ends with Robert.  If the family did convert to Huguenots, royal historians may have stricken them from the historical record.  While doubtful, even if so, there should be records of the land grant to Peter from the King of England.

In my own research, the problems I've found so far with this line:

* Sources say that the line died with Robert.

* I have found no evidence whatsoever that Peter is a real person.

* The sources I have found for various Noblet individuals that have real source documents do not match the dates of birth, spouses, names, etc - it is possible that one family tree was written with conflated records and then copied again and again.

* Most (if not all) of the sources for this line from Robert to Peter are links to other unsourced trees.

There are a few sites that list an impressive lineage and purport that this information comes from this book or that but no sources are offered.  For example, this page: http://jlwhite-online.com/noblitt3.HTM says that their information comes from  NOBLITT BOOK - A Family History starting in 1394 with Jean de Noblet of France.  I am not sure if they got this information from a book or they're calling their web page a book but I can find no evidence of a book by this name.  Of all the genealogies I've read on the Noblett line (written in the first half of the 20th century) make no mention of this Huguenot migration to England.  This legend seems to only appear in the latter half of the 20th century.

What I can determine with some certainty is that, if Peter did exist, there is no evidence that he is the father of the 4 brother settlers to the Pennsylvania colony.  It is looking more and more like someone wrote a fantasy tree, put it online and it has been copied so many times that it is accepted as fact.

If you can add any insight or sources for the individuals marked * above, it would be appreciated.

thanks

1. Noblit, John Hyndman, Genealogical Connections Relating to the Families of Noblet. Philladelphia, PA: Private printing, 1906. Page 15

WikiTree profile: Peter Noblett
in Genealogy Help by SJ Baty G2G Astronaut (1m points)
edited by SJ Baty

Certainly compact - Hastings to 1500 in 5 steps

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/de%20Noblette-Descendants-3

These profiles don't relate to this thread.

Edit to add: on second look, that's pretty funny.  Nice.

Hah, SJ Baty, perhaps it's good to understand that medieval wikitree bloopers tickle RJ Horace's sense of humor, and he has an entertaining way of phrasing things.

I did a google search and found the following quote, with list of sources, at http://jlwhite-online.com/noblitt3.HTM

 "Maryann's Noblitt family genealogy is well 
documented with four books written tracing the lineage from  Jacques De Noblet in 
France through John Noblitt and his brothers who arrived in the U.S. in the 1729 time 
frame. The books "Down the Centuries with the Noblitts" printed in 1956 and compiled by 
Loren Scott Noblitt;  "From Whence Ye Came" printed in 1982 compiled by Lela Grant 
Carruth; "Three Centuries of the Noblitt family" printed in 1995  by Halbert's 
Publishing Co., 3687 Ira Road, Bath, Ohio  44210 and "Genealogical Collections" by John 
Hyndman Noblitt; and most recently a document compiled by Loren Walls Noblitt (son of 
Loren Scott Noblitt) called "Noblesse Oblige". 

Your post exactly highlights the problem with this lineage - and so many others on the net that are (even worse than not sourced) are sourced poorly.  Actually, in the case of Peter Noblett, I would say not sourced at all.

Picking apart the quote, provided on the website ttp://jlwhite-online.com/noblitt3.HTM, the first issue is with the statement "Maryann's Noblitt family genealogy is well documented..."  Where is it well documented?  It is not documented on this site.  Merely saying that you took information from a book is not the same as making a statement and providing a reference to the specific page with or without a direct quote to support.

The sources provided in this quote - and used (re-copied) throughout the internet are:

Noblit, John Hyndman, "Genealogical Connections Relating to the Families of Noblet," 1906.

Noblitt, Loren Scott, "Down the Centuries with the Noblitts," 1956.

Carruth, Lela Grant, "From Whence Ye Came," 1982.

Halberts Publishing Co., "Three centuries with the Noblett family," 1995.

Starting with the first, Noblit, 1906, he offers a collection of records of all Noblet/tt/ette/it/itt families from France, other countries in Europe, and in the Americas from the earliest recorded time until the early 20th century.

In his book, he lists in France, the members from Noblett family in question, as well as many other French families by the same surname.  Regarding this family he covers most some of the line found here:

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Framberge-Descendants-1

and here:

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Noblet-Descendants-68

that line continues here:

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Noblett-Descendants-42

and it is on this page that we see the line

Robert ->

Claude ->

Jacques ->

Peter

On page 14, Noblit says that the line ends with Robert: he died without children.  The individuals Claude, Jacques and Peter are absent from this book.  There is no reference to them at all.

We can remove Noblit's 1906 book from the list to support this "well documented tree."

Noblitt, 1956, starts with a chart showing the progenator of this line/tree progenitor as John Noblett.  There is no link to a Peter Noblett.  Actually, there is no Peter Noblett, father of John Noblett in this book at all.

The two earliest references, one written in 1906 and the other in 1956 do not include the ancestors of Robert: Claude, Jacques & Peter.

So where did they come from?  Someone must have uncovered new research and published it.  There is no reference to these sources.  The other two books are mentioned but no direct reference nor page number offered.  In the absence of a source, this tree, from Peter to Robert is fantasy.

I have a copy of Grant, 1982, the SOLE reference to the Noblit family is on page 42:

John married twice. His first marriage was to Elizabeth Dixon, daughter of Simon and Elizabeth Allen Dixon, on October 6, 1787. She was the sister of Thomas Dixon. Nancy Stout, daughter of Charlie and Mary Noblett Stout, was John's second wife. They were married on April 23, 1812.

And the last "reference," Halbert's, 1995, I cannot find a copy of this "book" online.  I did find, however, find this:

...

Under the 1988 cease and desist order, the following conduct by Halbert's is prohibited:

* Representing that a book is principally about a particular family name and the history of this family name 

* Representing that a book contains information about someone's forebears and their emigration from Europe 

* Representing that a book contains information about the heraldry and family crest of a particular family 

* Representing that a book explains how a particular family got its surname 

*Representing that a book explains why someone's forebears immigrated to the New World (the United States, Canada, and Australia) 

*Representing that a book explains why persons with a particular surname immigrated to the New World 

*Representing that a book is the result of research through numerous sources by themselves, or someone acting in their behalf, to compile information on persons with the addressee's surname who immigrated to the New World

...

[This article from the March/April 1996 issue of the NGS Newsletter may be reprinted in other publications.]"

Wow.  As I type that I begin to realize where these fantasy trees come from.

I was about 85-90% uncertain about this Robert to Peter Noblett connection but after seeing this, I'm inclined towards 99% believing that this is a concocted tree.

"Hah, SJ Baty, perhaps it's good to understand that medieval wikitree bloopers tickle RJ Horace's sense of humor, and he has an entertaining way of phrasing things."

If it was a snake, it would have bitten me...  just now seeing this and realizing it for what it is LOL.

I was the one that linked Robert and Claude as father and son. At the time, I believed this to be the case given the discussion that I had and the research that was presented to me. I have now marked that as uncertain and do not believe it to be the case give this thread and SJ Baty's outline.

I cannot correct the trees out there that repeat this, however, I am going to make sure the profiles that I manage do not show it till there is more information. I apologize for this, I know it's part of a bigger issue with these community trees and crowdsourcing,  but I feel like I failed the tree and people here and am glad this issue was raised so that others can see it as well.
Don't worry about it, there's no need to take it personally.  Stuff like this turns up daily and the supply seems endless.  And people are still writing it.
Quite to the contrary Desmon; I'm quite happy that you're seeking the truth, no matter where the path takes us.
It's not personal in a bad way. I don't think SJ or anyone here has ever attacked me or my work or anything of the sort and this is far from my first opps and won't be my last. I just feel a responsibility and accountability as a member of the tree, that's all. I glad to see these things address, like has been said they are the weeds that pop up often.
I feel compelled to make this comment in defense of my web site on the lineage of the name NOBLITT, et al.

My web site as I explained in the text is just a compilation of information I gleaned from the books mentioned and condemned by S.J. Baty, plus by my meager research on Ancestry.com and WikiTree. This I put together for the benefit of my kin who mostly can not afford the time, energy or money to do the research on their own.

About the books, I have “Down the Centuries with the Noblitts” (DCN)  by Loren S. Noblitt and Minnie Walls Noblitt which was given by them to my mother at the time of the publication. I also have "Noblesse Oblige" (NO) which was given to me by Loren W. Noblitt, who I spoke to personally about the research, because of my interest in the history of the name Noblitt and my activity in genealogy.

I understand that the research on DCN spends 95 percent of the book on the family in America. But there is one comment in the Letters of Corroboration that is important, I quote from page 45 of DCN:

A letter from the late Rt. Rev. D. Scott Swain, S.T.D., Bishop of the Episcopal Church and Chancellor of Temple Hall College and Seminary, McNabb, Illinois, written January 12, 1948, to the compilers of this volume, offers evidence of corroboration of statements above concerning Noblet Huguenots from France settling in England. We quote:
“I found in a shipment of books from England, two volumes listing among other things, the names of the French Huguenots who settled in England. Among them were numerous persons bearing the Noblet family name. Numerous notes regarding these members of the family were contained in the books, In September I returned from California to ship a portion of my library out there. Two volumes arrived from England while was here, and I briefly read them. I shipped them in a special shipment of books which shipment was lost. The volumes are very rare and extremely scarce, and it is doubtful other copies can be obtained.”

Could this be some of the missing proof, I don't know, but neither does S.J. Baty.

The Bibliography of  DCN runs from page 206 to page 211, which is too long to add to the web site but is available to any one who is interested.

The book NO deals much more with the early name and the history.
The Bibliography lists much the same as the DCN but it does list a few new points of research:
R. Harrison - Surnames in Medieval France
Antrienne Houvet - Monograph of the Chartres Cathedral
Huguenot Society of London - Imigration Records
Inventory of Titles of Nobility in Tersaillac and St. Paul Registry
Lippincott - Biographical Dictionary
Mit Complementen Abweisen

This comment is in response to S.J. Batys assumption that I made this all up because his research was lacking in evidence, and that my web site was the cause of everything wrong in genealogical research.

Hi Jerry, and thanks for your input.

No where in my posts did I say that you made anything up or that you're the source of "everything wrong in genealogical research."  I am sorry if you feel like you've been attacked, that is not my intention.  I am only seeking the historic truth - as I wrote to you in my email so many months back.  I offered you evidence that your site was wrong and asked you to correct what were (still are) obvious errors.

What I have said, and I and others have proven here is that the supposed line from the Noblette who fought alongside William the Conqueror to the "modern Noblette family" is fantasy.  It has been soundly disproven as the official historic record documents the extinction of the Noblette lineage.

Robert Noblet, esquire, seigneur de Taincourt, died after his father, 1618, whose posterity is extinct; married Valence de Moru, daughter of Geoffroy de Moru, warden of Chateau Thierry.

This written by John Noblit, one of the authors you use as a source on your site.

[Noblit, John Hyndman, Genealogical Connections Relating to the Families of Noblet. Philladelphia, PA: Private printing, 1906. Page 15.]

I am looking at your site now and the first line reads:

Descendants of Jean De NOBLET

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIRST GENERATION

1.  Jean DE NOBLET was born in 1394.  He died in 1448.  Jean de Noblet is the first 
of the Noblitt line that can be linked directly, generation by generation to the 
present family starting with his birth in 1394.  

If the line died out in 1618 - this statement is incorrect.

I won't go line by line re-hashing this entire post.  But as it stands, there is a lot of misinformation out there about this lineage.  We have done our best here to document the Halberts fraud and the misstated facts about the genealogy.  The best we can do here is to present the historic records and debate what is proven and what is not.

I welcome your input into this important discussion and I hope that we can learn all that is possible about this lineage.

I wonder how long it has been since you actually looked at my web site... After our back and forth I changed my web site to only show a direct link to John in America, I also put your disclaimer on my Wikitree page but I see on your feed for the Noblitt name Q/A they and you are still trashing my web site showing text that has not been there for almost 6 months... That,s what prompted my comment...

This is a remarkable commentary on the John Hyndman Noblit book that seems to be a main source for much family tree research, mine included. The good news is that it was very useful in documenting a great deal about my ancestor William Noblet, one of the immigrants to Pennsylvania. As I included all the preceding information, back through all those European Noblits, I had my doubts but assumed that JHN knew what he was talking about. At this moment I am confident that my research is verifiable from William Noblet (of Pennsylvania) forward. But going backwards I lose confidence. There is no record of a ship Gautier or Quaffier bringing Quakers. There are no records (as you point out) that verify the parentage of the four brothers. And so, alas, sigh, I feel that I am back to square one in establishing the parentage of my ancestor William and from whence he immigrated to the colonies. Arthur Clyde
I’m a descendant of John Noblett. I have the same concerns that you do. What could clear some of this up is a Y DNA study of the direct male descendants of these brothers. I haven’t seen one yet.

1 Answer

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Best answer

So where does the trouble start?  The John Hyndman Noblit "Collections" book looks sound, though it's just bits that don't add up to anything.  There's a lot missing - coats of arms are shown for a lot of families all over France.  Genealogies are mentioned.

The "Down the Centuries" book takes all its European stuff from JHN - it's just the abridged version.  It does kind of vaguely imply that it all tells a story and it's relevant to the immigrants.

Apparently the "Noblesse Oblige" book is by Charles Robert Noblitt, son of Loren Scott Noblitt.   I haven't seen it but there's a summary here

https://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=larrypdx&id=I3423

So now we do have the immigrants traced back to 1066, and not just in a bare genealogical way, but with loads of colourful detail.  It's a massive work of superb research if it's all true.  Or it might just be a novel.  When we get to James II planting loyal Huguenot nobility in Ireland in 1668, I think that's the author fessing up.

The White site doesn't show any evidence of superb research.  It looks like just the available bits cobbled together with the usual stunts.

The bit about Duke William's royal decree for everybody to be rechristened with a last name is nonsense.

All the early records in JHN are just "Niblett" without a "de", implying that it might be derived from a nickname.  A "de" the way CRN gives it would imply a placename, and I don't think they'd have called themselves "de Noblette" in France in that era unless they were actually seigneurs of Noblette.  Some de's do appear in JHN later, around the Marquis, but I think it was just an affectation by then.

Can't be sure Jacques and Philibert didn't exist though.  But dates of marriages are rarely known in that era, and names of wives are rare unless they're heiresses.  Alexander is in JHN, sans wife.  I suspect his wife is inspired by the Marie de la Volpilliere who turns up later, p. 16, 24.

The WikiTree version then uses one Unknown to stand in for about 10 successive Unknowns and hopes you won't notice.

1394 on, JHN has records of at least one Jean, possibly 3.  One of them is seigneur de Fournet and is dead before 1468 leaving a widow and a son or nephew Antoine.  Since we have his wife as Isabelle de Mynsé I have no idea why she's changed to Anne Lechiere.

Antoine is changed to Gabrielle, a girl's name, maybe for nefarious reasons, as there's a phoney male Gabrielle coming later.  We don't have his wife in JHN but Jacqueline Fourney seems to be inspired by Fournet.

A Pierre turns up in JHN in 1487 but there's nothing to link him to Antoine or Fournet.  No wife.  His wife on the White site looks a lot like Isabelle de Mynsé's 3rd husband, Amédée de la Lechiere.

These genealogies for American consumption are so tidy - all the names and BMD dates all present and correct and ready for immediate use.

No mention of Tersillac or Taincourt in JHN at all so far.  But Tersillac is up next, because Nicholas and his wife Germain are in JHN p. 17-18.  They're dead by 1555 leaving sons Fabien and Jean who split the property.  Fabien's wife seems to be the heiress of Tersillac, which explains why there's no previous mention.

Our line then drops Tersillac and makes Fabien's brother Jean be the same Jean who kicks off the Taincourt line.  This stretches the dates because Taincourt Jean (seigneur by 1510, not born 1510) has a grand-daughter Jeanne who is married by 1558.

Lancelot's wife Anne de Courtement, or Courtemont, seems to be crossed with Marie Anne [no de] Contenot who appears on p. 13.

And so to Robert whose posterity is extinct.

Claude seems to be inspired by the Claude on p. 21-22, but he's seigneur de Prés and presumably the heir of Benoit on p. 18.  Marriages p. 29 and 33, v. confusing.  Brother André.  This family turn out to be the ancestors of the Marquis d'Anglure, p. 52.  André has a son Claude.

Matthieu and Marie are on p. 68.  No connection to Claude.  If Matthieu is Michel's brother his father is Pierre from Geneva.  No sign of a daughter Gabrielle, or son.

No Gabriels or Gabrielles anywhere in JHN  or LSN.

His/her wife Catherine Bertrand is borrowed from the Tersillac line, like the Volpilliere girl.

Pierre, naturalized 1570, p. 99, probably the Dutchman buried in 1578, p. 122.

Pierre, something big in Brittany, living 1668, p. 73.  Probably same as or father of the Mayor of Nantes 1690-92, p. 42.

Pierre, marries Magdalene, a widow, in a French church in England 1685 p. 104.

http://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.uk/parish-register-transcriptions/essex/thorpe-le-soken-st-michael/

Her will dated Canterbury 1722/3 p. 132.  His will Shepton Mallet (!?) 1702 proved 1715 p. 129.  Obviously a refugee, so could well be the Peter naturalized 1696, p. 99, but presumably can't be the Mayor of Nantes.  Parents Stephen and Anne.  Not nobility and no sign of an estate in Ireland, but seems to be the inspiration for the whole Huguenot story that's needed to get French nobility to Pennsylvania.
 
Seems to me the sources are all here, but they just don't support the story.

 

by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot (561k points)
selected by SJ Baty
Thanks for that, really enjoyed reading it.  It is rare to find history when it's told in a way that both teaches and entertains. I did get a good chuckle or two.

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