looking for Scotland Geneology work

Question

I'm interested in helping out and working with/on any good leads people have In they're Scotland genealogy right now. Preferably 1500-1750 time range,and brickwall's. Let me know if you got something with the wikitree-ID link and explain what you know as a general overview and we can coordinate on it via email,or on this feed through commenting on your answer feed.THX XD

Comments

Viewing a record on Scotlandspeople actually works out cheaper than buying a certificate in England. You can narrow down the search for free and limit the amount of views you need to make.

The only other legitimate way to access their views that I know of is to visit the Scotlandspeople Centre in Edinburgh where you can view as many records as you want by buying a seat for a day for £15. The downside of that approach is that you cannot download what you view and you have to pay for every print out. I think the Hawick Heritage Hub also offers the day option.

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Lynda,

I was at the Centre (actually the building) for just one one day two years ago, but went to the Archives area instead and looked actual historical documents pertaining to Porterfield surname I am researching. It was a fascinating experience.

I have actually paid for a couple of items I was very interested in - images of two Coat of Arms for two Porterfields from the original book - one had been slashed through indicating they had been revoked - they were on the legally wrong side (at the time) of law being the Covenanters in the late 1600 hundreds.

As an American we are used to the all you eat for a large price on records with image often available. You pay more for a legal copy of a document to be used in court-related matters (probate, etc.). I rarely says this but it would be nice to see Scotland follow the US lead on this.

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Scotland has to pay for that nice new building with archive climate control somehow... getting money from the American "cousins" makes a lot of sense.

I have used Scotland's People extensively and was able to take my line back before 1850. Problem is getting further back because every Lamberton generation & family line seems to have a James, a Robert, a Thomas, etc. Attempts by a fellow Lamberton to trace the family back thru Kilwinning Lodge rand into the same issue - too many given names were the same.

(You know, James, son of James, sone of James.....and no birth years)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go to Kilmaurs, Scotland and snoop around.

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Thanks Marty, I didn't even know about these book.

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Roy,

I have a similar problem made worse by a cadet line that moved to Ireland as part of the plantation movement. Multiple Williams and Johns at each generation. Once they moved to Donegal the trail get colder, also.

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They seem reliable to me but as sourcing goes.. most are derivative or transcriptions. We have to review author credentials and sources they cite to evaluate use as a source.

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If you download the documents, they are usually .pdf copies of the originals (with all the "fun" of reading the handwriting.

I would consider them to be an accurate source and not a transcription. The stuff on Ancestry IS usually a transcription and they sure can misspell names.

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Roy, agreed about Scotlands People having original sources (technically image of original sources). I was referring to the links to books I had added earlier being derivitive. That was not clear in retrospect.

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If you are sourcing the Stetson family, the Barry & Stetson books are an excellent source, even if they are derivative works.

(added later) Sometimes the original materials just are not easily available to those who don't live in the area where the ancestors lived.... and getting an official certificate from any U.S. government organization costs upwards of $20-$50. My mother bought the O.F. Stetson Books for less than that....and THEY are online,

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Roy and Marty,
I have run into the same problems with the Patrick family of Ayrshire. Every generation has a John, James, William, Hugh, Robert, and sometimes an Alexander.  Burke's Learned Gentry, Paterson's History of Ayr, from which Burke took a lot of info,  and the even earlier Robertson's Principle Families of Ayrshire, have all been great references, but none of them have birthdates. They refer top the well known Patrick family of Ayrshire. At that time,  several members of the family had estates, high position in the region, and were heavily involved in local history associations. They were peers with the authors, and one of them provided the information. Despite the Patrick surname being regularly associated with several different clans, this family does not have any historical clan connections.  They are clearly associated with the Kilwinning Abbey, but those church records are not available. To make things just a little more complicated, they seem to have no problem changing their surname to Kilpatrick or even Kirkpatrick. This may have been done just to differentiate them from their cousins. The family had apparently been in the region around Kilwinning since the 1400s, which burke and the others refer to, but then they jump forward to the 1500s/1600s using William Patrick of Overmains, near Kilwinning as their first generation. I haven't been able to locate anything called Overmajns, but Nethermains is south of Kilwinning Abbey, near Irvine, so I'm guessing that Overmains is to the immediate North of the Abbey.  William Patrick seems to have died sometime in, or before 1602, as that is when his son (presumably the oldest, but he doesn't list any brothers) came in possession of the land. They say the land was a grant from Kilwinning Abbey.  Paterson gives reference of William Kirkpatrick, minister of Kilwinning in 1571 as possibly being the same gentleman as the William Patrick listed.  Fasti Ecclesiae Scota (history of the Scottish Presbyterian church) shows a Woman Kirkpatrick, minister in 1567 of Kilwinning and Dalgarven, and in 1574 also of Dunlop and Beith. He was the first Prebyterian minister of Kilwinning after the Abbey was destroyed, and may have even had a part in that.  It further states that he had 2 children, William and Marsha, but he died in 1577. Possibly his son William is the one who died in 1602. The book "Kilwinning Abbey the Church of St. Winning" says the first Protestant pastor was Mr. Kilpatrick. In another book (can't find the name) there is a list of the pay of ministers. It lists William Kilpatrick in the year 1567 as L.80, and in 1576 as L.100 with the Kirkland of Kilwinning. Is ur a leap for me to speculate that the Kirkland of Kilwinning might be the same piece of land referenced as the Overmains, near the Abbey of Kilwinning? There is another reference by Burke, Robertson, and Paterson, of William Patrick as a subscribing witness in 1549 to a tack of the teinds of Dalry, granted by Alexander, Commendatator of Kilwinning, to John Hamilton. George Robertson's Topographical Description of Ayrshire says if the family that "On the approach of the Reformation, they acquired land from the Abbot, situated in the vicinity of Kilwinning.  There doesn't seem to be any reference to Overmains in any of the tax or geographic or archealogical references to the area. Anyway, I'm sorta just dumping into here, but I'd like your opinions. I have found those books to be a good starting point, but you have to chase the rabbit holes for more information.

Answer 1

Joseph Sutherland was born March 27, 1770 at Columbia County, New York.

..."A family bible states that the father of Joseph had been a Captain in the Highland regiment of Scotland who may have seen action during Britain's war with Napoleon..."

From "The Place of the Fence" pp 80-81 by Jacob Gill Gaudaur, Jr.

Comments

Does the Joseph Sutherland have a wikitree profile?

And for starters do you recognize any of these names on this 1850 census in Lewiston, Niagara, New York, United States?

"United States Census, 1850," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCBK-6GF : 12 April 2016), Joseph Sutherland in household of David Collins, Lewiston, Niagara, New York, United States; citing family 318, NARA microfilm publication M432 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).

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Yes, he does.

Joseph [middle name?] Sutherland

Born 27 Mar 1770 in Columbia County, New York

Son of [father?] and [mother?]

[brothers or sisters?]

Husband of Sarah (Dunham) Sutherland — married 24 Oct 1790 in 1st Stanford Baptist Ch., Bangall, Dutchess Cnty, NY

DESCENDANTS 

Father of Sarah Ann Parmer (Sutherland) Gill [add child]

Died 17 Mar 1855 in Niagara County, New York, USA

Profile manager: Frank Gill   [send private message]

Sutherland-658

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here is a relevant and correct document. It mentions a "Thomas Sutherland" whom Joseph may indeed be related too on this 1800 census record for Joseph Sutherland in Washington, Dutchess, New York, United States. Where he was most seemingly married too his wife. So getting warmer now.

 

"United States Census, 1800," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRZ5-14J?cc=1804228&wc=3V1X-STX%3A1585148702%2C1585148341%2C1585148347 : 10 June 2015), New York > Dutchess > Washington > image 6 of 10; citing NARA microfilm publication M32, (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).

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I found his marriage record and referenced it an him and his wives profile.

 

"New York Marriages, 1686-1980," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F634-LTB : 10 February 2018), Joseph Surtherland and Sarah Dunham, 24 Oct 1790; citing reference ; FHL microfilm 441,655.

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Their daughter Sarah Ann Sutherland was born in Pougheepsie, Dutchess Co. New York. She married Jacob Charles Gill who was born in Kinderhook, Dutchess county, New York.

What I am most interested in is to trace Joseph Sutherland, born March 27, 1770 back to his ancestors in Sutherland Shire, Scotland.

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It's a 50/50 so far that he is from Scotland he could of even possibly been from Ireland, which opens the door for this goose chase a bit. I wish the author had more suggestions on this,my question too you is why did Jacob Gill Gaudaur, Jr. create the suggestion of  Sutherland Shire Scotland? Hmmm the search continues ima keep looking.

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According to Jacob Gill Gaudaur's book, The Place of the Fence, "A family Bible claims that the father of Joseph had been a Captain in the Highland Regiment in Scotland who may have seen action during the British war with Napoleon."  Pages 81-82.

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Since these are tiny indications we have too work with, all we are left with is too further research an grand amount of your other bloodlines that your related too that are first too third cousins with this blood line of Johnathan Sutherland. So now that is what work must be done in vast detail, in order too obtain more context and too see if he is mentioned in any other documentation related too him. XD

Answer 2

You are welcome to dig into the Lamberton family of Ayrshire....

Ignore the obvious - -

 

I have my line back to Lamberton-152, then we're lost. I'm pretty sure that as yo follow the tree up, that we're somewhat accurate, but proving anything is a derad end.

There are a couple of folks from our family trying to figure out how we're all related, and its not through the old Bishop of Edinburg, (or is it...?)

Let me know if you'd like more info.

Comments

Sure, what have you got for wikitree profiles on this matter too look into and discuss? And what are some of the important ideal must know and well known facts on the subjects too get a rough idea of where too go and search for records? THANK YOU ROY,XD

Answer 3

I have been trying to trace my roots through ScotlandsPeople but have gotten stuck at the 1850 cut-off.  The problem I am having is that my ancestors kept naming all their kids the same name: Alexander or Alastair!  I would appreciate any help or advice on how to get further into the past.  My last name is MacDougall (although I have seen it spelled McDougall as well).  I am fairly sure of (Alexander) MacDougall-673 but not so much for his parents, MacDougall-827 and Brown-74706 .  The family is from Glasgow.  Thanks!

Comments

ok im going too look into, i'll let you know what I can dig up. XD

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Can you copy and paste the link too the wikitree profiles you want me too look into? I'm having trouble finding them. thx

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Here is the specific link:  https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/MacDougall-Family-Tree-673 and my tree is:  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/MacDougall-639.  I hope this helps.  Thanks!

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/MacDougall-827

This is Dougald Macdougal's Christening Record I ref tagged it too his sources:

"Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYZ8-4S9 : 10 February 2018), Dougald Macdougal, Dec 1797; citing ARROCHAR,DUNBARTON,SCOTLAND, reference , index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,041,981.

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I am currently reading https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Genealogy-Fourth-Bruce-Durie/dp/0750984228 and whilst I don't completely agree with him I did find a relevant point. During says that first born sons were often named after their paternal grandfather and second born sons after their maternal grandfather.

This has opened a realm of previously unconsidered possibilities for me in dismantling a brick wall pre 1850.

Answer 4

Andrew Palmer/Munro https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Munro-400 is a mystery man purportedly born near Falkirk in the County of Stirling.  I have written about my research in a Blogpost  http://ancestralresearchjournal.blogspot.com.au/2016/05/where-is-margaret-palmer.html 

I have transcribed Andrew Munro Chelsea Pensioners' Service Record 

I have a Summary of Andrew’s service record

I have the negative research results for an onsite search that my sister wrote up after visiting Callandar House while on holidays. Details of her search are listed below (referred to in the Footnotes on his profile in the 2^nd reference ) but in summary, the search results are listed below:-

• Central Scotland Family History Society Falkirk Parish Burials Pre 1855 (Vol B7 or 37): nil
• East Stirlingshire Monumental Inscriptions pre 1855, by John Fowles Mitchell and Sheila Mitchell, Scottish Genealogy Society 1997: nil
  • There was no suggestive  Monro/Munro
  • The only Palmer listed was found at p.226:
  • Stirling Holy Rude Churchyard Stone 95: Humphrey Palmer esq w. Susan Campbell d. Callander 19/9.1829 27.
• Falkirk Parish of the Church of Scotland Minute Book No.13 1803 – 1833. This is a fascinating archive of church judgments and ministrations against unwed mothers and illegitimate children. - Looked in years 1828 to 1831 inclusive: nil
• Falkirk Paper in 1901 (year of Andrew’s death: nil suggestive notices.
• Prison  Assessment Burgh of Falkirk FA 2/4/1 1842, 1843 (none earlier): nil
• Falkirk Indexes OPR
• Pre-1855 Registers of Dissenting Churches, Falkirk area: nil
• Burial Register of Relief Church Falkirk: nil
• Registration of Burials in the burying grounds of the Second United Associate Congregation Falkirk: nil

Of course, it is possible he never came from Scotland.

The question is now where to next.  Any help would be greatly appreciated as I have run out of ideas.

Comments

Ok ill be looking into this I'll respond back when I have some answers. Thank you for the information too get me started. XD

Answer 5

This is one of my brickwalls, John Rae-1030

Everything I know is in the research notes. I think I have the right baptism for him, but not certain so I have not yet added his parents - he named his first two children John and Margaret, but his wife's parents were John and Margaret as well.

I would love to make progress with this one because my dad took a Y-DNA test and all the matches are to McLaren or variations of that. I have found no connection to this name, other than my ggf's middle name: He was James McLaren Rae. The minister who married his parents was a McLaren, so there were some in the parish, but no familial connections so far.

Thanks!

Comments

ok ill look into itthx XD

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I so far got these two Baptism records for two of John and Margret (Melvill) Rae's children and put them on the profile's too fit XD

Margret Rae: "Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT2F-F6F : 10 February 2018), John Rea in entry for Margret Rea, ; citing Larbert, Stirlingshire, Scotland, reference 2:17VNMTD, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,041,953.

John Rae: "Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT2F-246 : 10 February 2018), John Rea in entry for John Rea, ; citing Larbert, Stirlingshire, Scotland, reference 2:17VNJD6, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,041,953.

Answer 6

Thanks for the offer Troy.  I have an ancestor, no profile here yet as I haven't got that far back on the line he appears in yet profile wise.

His name is William Laird, and that surname has always been my sticking point... I mean, try typing Laird into a search engine and see what you get, lol!

This is my scant info on him.  He was born c1745 in Perth, Perthshire.  He was a Liut. in the 86th Reg of Foot, so he was an officer.  He married a woman called Isabella, and had a daughter, also Isabella, born in St Giles, London c1770 but I don't know where the marriage took place.

He was listed in the London Gazette in 1776 and was sent to the Kings Bench Prison in Surrey (Debtors prison).

London Gazette 11 June 1776 Issue 11674 P15 First Notice
London Gazette 15 June 1776 Issue 11675 P11 Second Notice
London Gazette 18 June 1776 Issue 11676 P15 Third Notice

"William Laird formerly of Chichester-rents Chancery Lane, late of Shire Lane Temple Bar, both in the Liberty of the Rolls, Middlesex.  Liutenant of Foot, Half Pay."

He was in Newcastle on Tyne (Northern England)  in 1778 for the christening of his son John on 25 Dec 1778, and still listed as a Liut in the Parish Registers.  His dau Isabella married Edward Laws on June 17th at St. Mary's in Gateshead and finally, he was listed as "Liut., formerly in 86th Reg of Foot" in the Parish Register at his burial at Gateshead on 25 July 1824.

Comments

I also think "Laird" was also a title in Scotland during a timeline in history so that sure seems suspect in this sentence. "William Laird formerly of Chichester-rents Chancery Lane, late of Shire Lane Temple Bar." So then I ask is their any other indication of another possible sir-name he may have? Or was he born with that sir-name?

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It definitely was (and still is) a Scottish title, that's why it's hard to find accurate info about the surname rather than the title.  FamilySearch has a number of people with the surname Laird, so they're definitely out there.

From The Scotman: Scottish surname that comes from the Scots word laird meaning 'landowner'. The name is derived from the Norse log mann meaning 'lawman' or 'lawgiver'. Scottish surname that derives from the diminutive forms of the male first name Laurence or Lawrence.

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I also have these notes from Scotlands People of William Laird's born around-ish the rough year I have for my chap:

1.  William Laird  1735         Father Thomas Laird            Perth             

2.  William Laird 1736         Father John Laird                 Perth
3.  William Laird  1738        Father  John Laird                Meigle    These two could possibly be same one birth the other the Baptism ?

4. William Laird 1739          father Andrew Laird              Lethendy and Kinloch
                                            / mother Margaret Sanders

5. William Laird 1761          father Patrick Laird                Perth
                                           /mother Grizel McNab

 

And I forgot to mention that he was listed as 79 when he died so that's how I ended up with a c1745 as a birth year.

Answer 7

Hey Troy, I have a brick-wall in Scotland for the time-frame you specified.  Here's a link to my profile: https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Montgomery-Family-Tree-8776. If you follow my Montgomery line back in my tree, you'll see it ends with Archibald Montgomery b 1720.  We are very certain that Archi's grandson George was my 3rd Great Grandfather. George founded the Octomore Distillery on his father John's farm of the same name outside Port Charlotte on Islay, Scotland.  One of my cousins questions whether Archibald was John's father, but several other distant cousins maintain that he was.  Archibald's father was supposedly a Robart (odd spelling) Montgomery b 1695 Islay.  Robart is my brick wall.  All of the Montgomery's eventually left Islay for Canada, the US, Ireland and Australia.  But my question is how did our family get to Islay in the first place? The well known home of the Montgomery family for 700 years in Scotland is Eaglesham, Renfrewshire. Whether I descend from them or not is uncertain.  I suspect so I am an exact Y-67 DNA match to Sven Montgomery, whose lineage has been shown to descend from Hugh Montgomery, the 1st Earl of Eglinton, who resided at Eaglesham (his family has the seal).  Now Hugh's wife was Helen, the daughter of Lord Campbell, who I believe ruled Islay at that time (having acquired it from the McDonald's).  My suspicion is that Robert was a descendant of Hugh and Helen who went to Islay to escape the never ending and deadly family feud between the Montgomery's and the Cunningham's, but that's just pure conjecture.  Any bit of help would be greatly appreciated! There are literally thousands of descendants anxiously awaiting an answer.

Comments

I'll start looking into it since you brought it up. What wikitree profiles for Montgomery seem most stable In evidence while also the furthest back in time to where I can start as a source too branch out with,past and future decent?

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Hi Troy, thank you ever so much for even considering looking into this!

I would say the best place to start would be my 3rd Great Grandfather - George Montgomery: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Montgomery-8777. 

Here's the family story, courtesy of the modern day Octomore distillery: https://www.bruichladdich.com/article/the-octomore-story. 

Here's a link to George's son William's headstone in Ontario: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/81787142 (he's my 2nd Great Grandfather).

Answer 8

Hi Troy, I could use a bit of help if you have the time.  
A.  I would like to find out who the sons of Sir William married.or who their (sons) children's descendants might be?

Sir William and his wife Jonet Rocheid had five sons (and 3 daughters):(All birth records in Old Parish Records, www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Morrison-4518)
Sons - not all on profile
Alexander (27/01/1683, FR2743, 685/1, 90/176, Edinburgh); ( died young)
William (15/03/1690, FR3228, 685/1, 110/153, Edinburgh); (William was in Scotland)
John (23/05/1691, FR3277, 685/1, 110/252, Edinburgh);
Henry/Henrie (16/09/1692, FR3345, 685/1, 120/34, Edinburgh; and
James (31/07/1693, FR3405, 685/1, 120/93)

B.  Particularly looking for the parents of both John Morison who m Barbara Duncan (Also OPRs)
: Birth Estimate 1687-1691
: Marriage in Dalkeith 27 May 1707 [OPRs & FHC]
possibly immigrate to the colonies after 1718, if she did.(No likely Wiki except Duncan-4056 presumed died before 1722 - Unknown marriage if any.   (Arrival  Estimate 1690-1694 (Father Age) William (b. 1639 m. McMurdo) -- 51 YRS) - Not likely as this family from  Dumfrieshire)

Their Children:
South Leith to Prestonpas appears to be about 20 mi. -- Also about 20 mi to Dalkeith
(OPR's)
South Leith - Mary Morison, 28 Feb 1714,
North Leith - Grizel Morison, 09 Mar 1712
PRESTONPANS, EAST LOTHIAN - William Morison, 28 Jun 1716
PRESTONPANS, EAST LOTHIAN Charles Morison, 26 Jul 1718

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Prestonpans was the home parish for Sir William Morrison of Prestongrange
Appears - Sir William was invested in Company of Scotland, the Scottish trading company, around 1690s to 1700s. I suspect he himself may have traveled to the colonies over time, but  no proof. However, he was in jail due to his debts in the late 1730s, he somehow got out, and he disappeared. His estate indicated that he died "overseas.-- the three daughters were married. The other three sons could have immigrated or died  Scotland

(1) Morrisons found in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia;   The last three sons do not appear in the Wikitree records  (May be hanging out under different name or incomplete info - will take some intense searching to determine) (son William Morison-53)

Morrison/Morison family to US - Electric Scotland  - is excellent: www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/morrison.pdf
(Page 159 of 190 -- James Morison 1738-1816) Looks like may be traceable to Isobel (dau of Alexander and Isabella Murray of Lundie (Duncan-6253) (Duncans of Seasyde, Lundie, & Camperdown (this Duncan group is not proven connection to the US VA group)

OPR likely Births for Barbara
Only these in particular timeframe 1625 to 1700
DUNCAN    BARBARA    WILLIAM DUNCAN/BARBARA BROK FR1085 (FR1085)    F    03/02/1678    689/    40 4    Inveresk and Musselburgh (age in 1707 -- 29)
DUNCAN    BARBARA    ANDREW DUNCAN/    F    07/12/1697    377/    20 79    Longforgan (age in 1707 -- 10)
DUNCAN    BARBARA    ROBERT DUNCAN/    F    08/03/1696    876/    10 11    Minnigaff (age in 1707 -- 11)
DUNCAN    BARBARA    GEORG DUNCAN/    F    09/02/1696    446/    10 158    Logie (age in 1707 -- 11)
DUNCAN    BARBARA    GEORGE DUNCAN/    F    09/03/1686    345/    10 22    Dron ( age in 1707 -- 21)
DUNCAN    BARBARA    JAMES DUNCAN/    F    09/10/1687    180/    10 12    Clatt ( age in 1707 -- 20)
DUNCAN    BARBARA    WILLIAM DUNCAN/    F    11/04/1680    232/    10 102    Peterhead (27)

DUNCAN    BARBARA    DAVID DUNCAN/ISSOBELL HEPBURN FR3217 (FR3217)    F    12/11/1689    685/1    110 131    Edinburgh (age in 1707 -- 18)

I think Most likely (if birth recorded)  to be Barbara of Edinburgh (right area and right age)
 or Barbara of Clatt (140 mi -- north of aberdeen -- seems kind of far though)

Comments

Thank you Sandy for your concise I'll be looking into this soon

Answer 9

Troy,  I am interested in the effects of the Lowland Clearances, especially in "The Valley" (Darvel-Newmilns-Galston-Greenholm-Loudoun) section of Ayrshire.  Do you know of local histories or work done specifically about the families of these villages, their migrations, in the late 1700s?

Comments

No I'll have some learning too as for as this locations Kirk's, and Laird' s. XD ill look into it