What would you make of the conflicting source data on this Quaker profile?

+4 votes
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I would welcome any input regarding the conflicting source data I have found as to the marriage year for Richard Ridgeway and Mary Willits.  There are three different dates given in the Hinshaw volumes and a fourth given in secondary sources.  For details, see the Research Notes for the Richard Ridgeway profile.
WikiTree profile: Richard Ridgeway
in Genealogy Help by John Hodson G2G6 (9.4k points)

4 Answers

+4 votes
 
Best answer

Does this help?

At our Mens  monthly meeting held at ye meeting house in Burlington ye 12 of ye 10 month 1700 (December)

Jarvis Pharo desires of this meeting a certificate concearning his clearness as to marriage & conversation he being intended to marry one Elizabeth Willis near [Jerico?] on Long Island. Richard Ridgway Juni’r desires  ye like he being intended to tak her sister Marry Willis . John Shinn & John Day desired to make inquiry concerning them as usuall

At our monthly meeting held at ye meeting house in Burlington ye 6th of ye [2nd mth?] 1700 ( ancestry says 06/01/1700) would be  1700/1)

The friends appointed to enquire of ye of ye clearness & conversation of Gervis Pharos & Richard Ridgway Junier being answer y’ they find nothing to contradict their prosedings but yf  they are clear as relating to Marriage & their conversation is according to truth whereupon ye meeting orders certificate to be made ready against ye next meeting.

At our Mens Monthly Meeting held att our Meeting house in Burlington ye 3 day of ye 3 mo’th 1700/1701 ( ancestry says 3 March )

A certificate according to ye order of ye last meeting in behalf of Richard Ridgway Juni’r & Garvis Pharo was red & subscribed in behalf of ye meeting.

Haverford College; Haverford, Pennsylvania; Minutes, 1678-1737; Collection: Philadelphia Yearly Meeting Minutes New Jersey Burlington Burlington Monthly Meeting Minutes, 1678-1737 images 182, 183, 184 viewed on ancestry.co.uk

The next one is clearly in 1709, not 1708 as indexed by ancestry. (seems a long time between getting the certificate and marrying)

Whereas there hath been an intention to Marr[ ] between Richard Ridgway son of Richard Ridgway of ye province of West New Jersey & Mary Willits daughter of Hoop & Mary Willits of Jerusilem in [guans?] County on Long Island

These are to certifie ye truth to all people whome itt may concern that Richard Ridgway and Marey Willots having laid their intentions of marriage before two severall meetings of our mon[ ] women friends by whome ther were defered to wait until inquiries was made concearning their clearness from all others in Relation to Marriage & persons being appointed by said meetings to make [   ] concerning ye same And at their second coming before siaid meeti[ ]  all things being found clear as by Inquire &by certificate from frie[nds] at Burlington did appear friends gave their concent to their professings to ye accomplishing of their afore said intentions AND accordingly on ye ninth day of ye eighth month in ye year one thousand seven hundred and nine Att a meeting orf ye people of god called Quakers and at ye house of Hoop Willits aforesaid And with concent of parents [ye  ] The  said Richard Ridgway takeing Mary Willits by ye hand and declare[ ] as followeth In ye presence of god & before this assembly I take this friend Marey Willits to be my wife promissing to be a loveing & faithfull husba[nd] uto her til death separate Mary Willits likewise declared friends in ye presense of god & this assembly I take this friend Richard Ridgway to be my husband promising to be a loveing & faithful wife to him to dea[th] shall separate. And we w’ose names are under written are witnesses

Richard Ridgway Mary Ridgway

Hugh Coporthi[] Nathaniel Pearcall Thomas Powell. Tho Powell  Benjamin Seamans John Powell Titus Titus,  Mareh Willits Samuell Browne John Ha[ ]ington Martha Seaman Margaret Slites Martha [Persall?] Hanna Seamon Martha Titus Hope Willits Marey Willits Richard Willts Samuel [Ti-us]

Swarthmore College; Swarthmore, Pennsylvania; Marriages, Births and Deaths, 1677-1765; Collection: Quaker Meeting Records; Call Number: MR-PH 55 New Jersey Burlington Burlington Monthly Meeting Marriages, Births and Deaths, 1677-1765 (image 61/143)  viewed on ancestry.co.uk

Note square brackets, my interpretation or where I was uncertain; some gaps at ends of words as they were on the fold

by Helen Ford G2G6 Pilot (293k points)
selected by John Hodson
Yes, thanks.  It would be great if we could compare the original text of the New York meetings, but unfortunately Ancestry doesn't seem to have images of those.  If anyone knows of an online source for those, that would nice to have as well
Presumably Burlington got this information second-hand, and the witnesses are all Long Island people.

There must have been some delay in transmission.  If the entry in the book was made in 1709, could the clerk have written 1709 when the info received from L.I. related to 1701? The happy couple weren't necessarily at the 1709 meeting.  (Do we know which month?)

Otherwise, there was an 8-year hold-up before the wedding and Hinshaw made a typo.

Looks like Richard's sister Elizabeth Ridgway married Richard Willits at Burlington at some point.  If the L.I. wedding was really in 1709, you'd expect to see "Elizabeth Willits" with her husband on the witness list, unless she was dead by then.
Perhaps the original read one thousand seven hundred and one (one and nine could easily be muddled ) so 9 October 1701. The entries in this book though are in chronological order.
Yes, it's easy to imagine that Burlington made its record by reference to a handwritten copy of the certificate from Long Island, leaving ample room for an error in the process, especially if there was any legibility issue with the source.  Even though the Burlington record seems to be chronological, it may not have been contemporaneous with the marriage, but rather compiled at some point even after 1709.

The point about the identify of the witnesses is interesting.  I don't see any Ridgways on the list except the groom and bride, but there are several witnesses named Willits.  The Willits family was from Long Island, while the Ridgways were from New Jersey.
The wedding was at the Willits's place.  The bridegroom had to attend, but it looks like he didn't take any family with him.
Jerusalem was in Queens County
+3 votes

 

Richard Ridgway

 in the U.S., Quaker Meeting Records, 1681-1935

 

      Name: Richard Ridgway
      Marriage Date: 9 Oct 1708
      Marriage Date on Image: 09 Eighth 1708
      Marriage Place: Burlington, New Jersey
      Father: Richard Ridgway
      Spouse: Mary Willits
      Spouse Father: Hoop Willits
      Spouse Mother: Marcy Willits
      Event Type: Marriage
      Monthly Meeting: Burlington Monthly Meeting
      Historical Meeting Data: Search for this monthly meeting in the 'Quaker Monthly Meetings Index'
      Type (Orthodox or Hicksite): Orthodox
      Yearly Meeting: Philadelphia Yearly Meeting
      Meeting State: New Jersey
      Meeting County: Burlington

      Source Citation

      Swarthmore College; Swarthmore, Pennsylvania; Marriages, Births and Deaths, 1677-1765; Collection: Quaker Meeting Records; Call Number: MR-PH 55

       

      by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (529k points)
      So now we have 5 different dates for this event!

      I viewed the actual page connected to this citation and it clearly reads 9th day of the 8th month 1709 not 1708 so there aren't really  5 dates.

      Edited to add this image is the marriage certificate signed by all involved on the date 9th day 8th month 1709

      Name: Richard Ridgway
      Marriage Date: 9 Oct 1708
      Marriage Date on Image: 09 Eighth 1708
      Marriage Place: Burlington, New Jersey
      Father: Richard Ridgway
      Spouse: Mary Willits
      Spouse Father: Hoop Willits
      Spouse Mother: Marcy Willits
      Event Type: Marriage
      Monthly Meeting: Burlington Monthly Meeting
      Historical Meeting Data: Search for this monthly meeting in the 'Quaker Monthly Meetings Index'
      Type (Orthodox or Hicksite): Orthodox
      Yearly Meeting: Philadelphia Yearly Meeting
      Meeting State: New Jersey
      Meeting County: Burlington

      Source Citation

      +2 votes
      The Quakers published their intentions to marry three times before the ceremony, in the monthly meetings preceding their marriage. The earlier dates are not marriage dates, but intention of marriage dates.

      After the marriage, (unless it was performed at the Monthly Meeting), members of the Meeting who were assigned to attend the wedding would report back to the Meeting that everything was done according to Quaker custom, or in an orderly fashion, etc.
      by April Dauenhauer G2G6 Pilot (109k points)
      Aren't the intentions to marry normally made within a couple of months span within the same year?  They aren't usually made 8 to 9 years apart.  I would think that there are transcription errors in some of these dates for them to be so far apart.

      Have you looked at the films of the actual meeting records, such as the one that Eddie posted?

      Intentions to marry can be confused with actual marriage, yes, especially in the monthly meeting minutes.  However, most of these records are from Hinshaw--wouldn't Hinshaw report marriage intention differently from marriage?  (The list of abbreviations used in Hinshaw shows different ones (dmi, dmist) for marriage intention--just m for marriage.) The New York record from Hinshaw, vol. III, p. 252 says "Richard, s Richard, Springfield, N. J.; m at Hope Willits' 8 Mo (0ct) 9, 1701 Mary WILLITS, dt Hope & Mary, Jerusalem in Hempstead rem to N.J."

      I have seen an image of a Burlington NJ hand-written record that says the marriage was in 1709; I have not found any image of the original New York record reported by Hinshaw.

      Sorry, that quote was from page 268, not 252
      Hinshaw doesn't seem to have any births.  Perhaps there were too many.  Does Eddie's source have the births of the 6 kids?
      No, I have not found much on the kids.  Richard's 1719 will lists their names, but no dates.
      Is it possible that the entry on page 268 in Hinshaw is simply a typo for the year? Everything else in both entries is exactly the same, other than the last digit (1701 as opposed to 1709). Possibly the reason you can't find an image for the page recorded as 1701 is that it doesn't exist?
      It's possible, yes, but the New York record was probably the original record, since the marriage was on Long Island, and the Burlington record also shows that Richard was granted permission to marry in 1700, so why would they not marry until 1709?

      The handwritten Burlington record looks like a compilation of marriage records, not chronological monthly meeting records, so I'm more inclined to think that it may have the year wrong.  And if it was 1709, how did they have 6 children before Richard's second marriage in 1714 (there's no indication of any multiple births)?
      However, if Richard R and Mary W married in 1701 and then lived at Burlington, there might be some evidence of them as a couple in the Burlington records between 1701 and 1709.
      +1 vote
      Hi- Off the top quickly, Id say marriage permission 1700, married 1701, and 1709 a transcription error.

      I dont think the original recorder would not have written 1709 in the year 1701. The event would probably not have been an original record at 8-9 years later.

      I didnt check the secondary sources.

      Id also say that his birthday should be Feb 27. Accdg to the source cited-  The Quaker record- says 2cnd month, not April the 4th month. April being the translation, Id say the translation was wrong and go with Feb 27.  What do you think, of what I think? :)

      :) Tammy
      by

      I agree as to the date of the marriage, but I guess I don't follow your reasoning as to the birth date.  Since it's a pre-1752 date from a Quaker record, the second month is April (see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Quaker_Notes); at least, that's my understanding and why it's done that way. If I'm missing something, please clarify.

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