A Rose Tilley By Any Other Name

+7 votes
359 views
Did some surfing around wikitree and came across a potentially problematic profile. Meet Rose Tilley a lass with supposed ties to Mayflower passengers, John Tilley and Joan Hurst. She seems nice and all that. Nice girl growing up in colonial Massachusetts Bay centuries before the Big Dig and people trying to park the car in Harvard Yard. One tiny problem.

There are no proof of this lady's parents. Check this out. The Wikipedia page for John Tilley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tilley_(Mayflower_passenger)

It lists two Roses. Both may have died young. So, how do we confirm which is which?  Can you?

Here is another source that says the connection is wrong: http://www.boydhouse.com/michelle/gorham/johntilley.html

So, do we disconnect? Might need to. Just saying. Oh and for the record you can't park the car in Harvard Yard. You take the T.
WikiTree profile: Rose Tilley
in Genealogy Help by Chris Ferraiolo G2G6 Pilot (450k points)
retagged by Ellen Smith

Rose Tillie

mentioned in the record of Jn Goods and Rose Tillie

Name Jn Goods
Spouse's Name Rose Tillie
Event Date 24 Jun 1599
Event Place Henlow,Bedford,England

Citing this Record

"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5K1-HCV : 10 February 2018), Jn Goods and Rose Tillie, 24 Jun 1599; citing Henlow,Bedford,England, reference , index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 826473, Q942.565 B4E V. 26.

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  • No image available

England Marriages, 1538–1973

Indexing Project (Batch) Number M00386-1
System Origin England-ODM
GS Film number 826473, Q942.565 B4E V. 26
There were indeed 2 Rose Tilleys. Simplified, Rose Tilley, daughter of John Tilley and Joan Hurst was born 23 Oct 1597 in England and died 28 Feb 1602 at the age of 6 six years, also in England. Her sister Elizabeth Tilley (born 5 years after Rose's death) crossed over on the Mayflower with her parents who did not survive the first winter. She later married John Howland, (Also famously crossing over on the Mayflower, at one point falling overboard.)

Robert Tilley and Elizabeth Elbourne were little Rose's paternal grandparents. They also had a daughter named Rose Tilley, born 8 May 1574 in England and died 10 April 1621 at age 47 in Plymouth, Massachussetts. She was the paternal Aunt of the younger Rose who was later named for her, and for her maternal Grandmother Rose Marshe Elbourne.

6 Answers

+4 votes
Of the 102 passengers, including 31 children, there were 11 girls on the Mayflower and one woman was pregnant with the son who became the first child born in the new colony. Few young females were aboard the Mayflower on her voyage to America in the 1600s. Travelers commonly held that girls were more fragile and would be unable to endure the long and difficult 66-day voyage and the hardships of establishing a colony in the new land. These long held beliefs were proved invalid when no girls died during the arduous ocean voyage, though two boys did. Who were these tough and resilient girls? 1) Humility Cooper traveled with her aunt and uncle (Edward and Ann Cooper Tilley). Edward and Ann died the first winter. Humility returned to England eventually. Some list Humility as an infant, others as at least 8 years old. 2) Joan Tilley and daughter Elizabeth Tilley (age 13) accompanied Edward Tilley's brother John. John and Joan died the first winter. Elizabeth at age 16 married passenger John Howland, age 31. During the crossing, John Howland had been swept off the Mayflower and into the ocean! John luckily was able to grip a ship's line and he was pulled back onboard. John and Elizabeth had ten children: Desire, John, Hope, Elizabeth, Lydia, Hannah, Joseph, Jabez, Ruth and Isaac. 3) and 4) Damaris Hopkins (2 years old), was accompanied by her parents Stephen and Elizabeth Hopkins, step-brother Giles and step-sister Constance Hopkins (born 1606, age 14). Note that Stephen Hopkins made a journey to Jamestown prior to the Mayflower voyage. Also, Elizabeth was pregnant and gave birth on the Mayflower to a son they named "Oceanus." This is the one family with a young girl that survived the first harsh winter in the colony. Demaris died as a young girl several years after the landing. Oceanus died by the age of 3. Constance married Nicholas Snow who arrived on the Ship Anne, the same ship that more of my ancestor Alice Southworth sailed on to America. 5) and 6) Mary More (born 1612, age 8) and Ellen More (born 1616, age 4) both died during the first winter. 7) and 8) Mary Allerton (born 1616, 4 years old) and Remember Allerton (born 1614, 6 years old) traveled with their parents Isaac and Mary Norris Allerton. Remember married Moses Maverick and had 7 children. Remember died in the 1650s. Mary married Thomas Cushman who arrived in the Ship Fortune. They had 8 children. Mary lived to be the last survivor of those who crossed in the Mayflower; she died 28 Nov 1699. 9) Desire Minter traveled with John and Katherine Carver, both of whom died shortly after the Mayflower returned to England. Desire returned to Holland in 1625 knowing that at the age of 21 she would inherit the endowment set up for her by her mother and step-father. John and Elizabeth Howland named their first child Desire in her honor. 10) James Chilton and his wife Susanna brought along Mary Chilton at age 13, born 1607. Mary's parents died the first winter. Mary married John Winslow and they had 10 children. 11) Priscilla Mullins , was the oldest girl to make the journey (she is my ancestor) at the age of 17 years. Her father William Mullins, mother Alice and brother Joseph were with her. They all died the first winter. She married John Alden, the Mayflower's cooper. John and Priscilla's love inspired the poem The Courtship of Myles Standish, by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Note: A son, Peregrine White , was born to pregnant passenger Susanna White, after the ship arrived in New England.
 

Elizabeth Tilley  John "Mayflower Compact" Howland  Rose Tilley
by Judyann Townsend G2G6 (9.2k points)

I'm confused. Are you saying things are correct here?

The first Rose must have died before 1602 when the 2nd Rose was born. No further record of the second Rose.

There were indeed 2 Rose Tilleys. Simplified, Rose Tilley, daughter of John Tilley and Joan Hurst was born 23 Oct 1597 in England and died 28 Feb 1602 at the age of 6 six years, also in England. Her sister Elizabeth Tilley (born 5 years after Rose's death) crossed over on the Mayflower with her parents who did not survive the first winter. She later married John Howland, (Also famously crossing over on the Mayflower, at one point falling overboard.)

Robert Tilley and Elizabeth Elbourne were little Rose's paternal grandparents. They also had a daughter named Rose Tilley, born 8 May 1574 in England and died 10 April 1621 at age 47 in Plymouth, Massachussetts. She was the paternal Aunt of the younger Rose who had been named for her and for her maternal Grandmother Rose Marshe Elbourne.
+4 votes

Rose Tilly

England Births and Christenings

Name Rose Tilly
Gender Female
Christening Date 23 Oct 1597
Christening Date (Original) 23 OCT 1597
Christening Place HENLOW,BEDFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Tilly

Citing this Record

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5GY-8JB : 11 February 2018, Rose Tilly, 23 Oct 1597); citing HENLOW,BEDFORD,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm Q942.565 B4E V. 26.

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  •  
  • No image available

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Indexing Project (Batch) Number P00386-1
System Origin England-ODM
GS Film number Q942.565 B4E V. 26
by Frank Gill G2G Astronaut (2.3m points)
So, is this the same Rose Tilley we have here? Not sure if this is the same lady. I mean one died very young.
+4 votes
I bring evidence that supports the notion that this lady's parents aren't who they are. Apparently the Mayflower Society does not accept her as a descendant of the Tilleys.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000010942156383

Oh and I've been informed that this page: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hyllier-1 copies Anderson word for word.
by Chris Ferraiolo G2G6 Pilot (450k points)
+6 votes
Has her alleged maiden name "tilly" been confused because Hugh Tilly and Hugh Hyllier are the same person?
by Anne B G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
They are? Wow. Talk about a plot twist! I think our problems started with this thread from a few years ago: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/202158/think-hillier-actually-tilley-listed-coming-america-parents

That is tagged with Rose and is a related question here.
Re: Has her alleged maiden name "tilly" been confused because Hugh Tilly and Hugh Hyllier are the same person?

I absolutely think that's the case.  Hugh Tilley also moved around a lot & his name was recorded differently in each case, including Miller.  But the marriage of "widow Hillyer" to Thomas Hutchins is clear in Barnstable Vital Records and includes recording of her Hillyer children.  "Hugh Tilley ALS Hillyer" is the name on the record of his Freedman oath.
+5 votes

True enough, there doesn't seem to be any proof that Rose who married Hugh Tilley/Hillier was Rose, daughter of Joan and John Tilley. Just for the record...

Rose Tilley, daughter of John Tilley, bapt. 23 Oct 1597 at Henlow, Bedford

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5GY-8JB : 11 February 2018, Rose Tilly, 23 Oct 1597); citing HENLOW,BEDFORD,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm Q942.565 B4E V. 26.

Rose Tilley, buried 28 Feb 1601 at Henlow, Bedford

Maine, Nathan Hale Cemetery Collection, ca. 1780-1980," database with images, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVJ5-MXF8 : 16 March 2018), Rose Tilley, ; citing Henlow, , Bedford, England, Cemetery, Maine State Library, Augusta; FHL microfilm 1,316,315.

Rose Tyllye, daughter of John Tyllye, bapt. 28 Feb 1602 at Henlow, Bedford

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5GY-8VM : 11 February 2018, Rose Tyllye, 28 Feb 1602); citing HENLOW,BEDFORD,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm Q942.565 B4E V. 26.

 

by Sara Mosher G2G6 Mach 1 (12.8k points)
edited by Sara Mosher
The argument has been made that the 2nd Rose b 1602 = Rose, widow Hillyer; no further record of that Rose has been found so far, and the records for her brother Robert only turned up fairly recently (after 2006).  But it’s a good weak case rejected by the Mayflower Society, and for good reason, starting with b 1602 is pretty old for a woman to be getting married for the 1st time in 1640.  The estimated Birth date for widow Rose Tilley alias Hillyer of say 1616 is fine.
+2 votes
Thanks for raising this Chris!

I'm proposing that we separate the profile into two at this time, one for the daughter of John and Joan (Hurst) Tilley, the other for the wife of Hugh Hillyer and Thomas Huckins.

I've combed through NEHGS, cleaned up the bio, added some open links to the sources where I could find them, and posted a comment on the profile - don't want to take anyone by surprise.  It seems that this has been discussed on G2G twice in 2015 and 2018, and if there was a source to connect anyone named Rose Tilley to the widow of Hugh Hillyer and Thomas Huckins, it would have been identified before now.

If new information surfaces, the connections can be adjusted again, but at this point, descendants like me are getting a false connection to the Mayflower that I'd like to address if its possible to do.  

Am I missing a reason we should wait?
by Laurie Giffin G2G6 Mach 8 (83.5k points)
Not really. Though, I was thinking we COULD make a new thread about this if you really wanted to. I mean this thread is old.

Thanks for cleaning up the bio. And yeah I haven't come across anything, yet. I kind of gave up. I even forgot I made this thread!!
She got caught in my Puritan ancestor-sweep.

One of the anonymous PM has indicated he/she doesn't mind if I make the change, but I'll give this thread a day or two just in case.
Sounds good to me. I'll see if I can find her in my main tree on Ancestry. =D

I wouldn't mind the change, either. Then again I'm leery on stuff pre-1600 to begin with.
The Mayflower project approves the disconnect of Rose wife of Hillier from the Tilleys also.

Thank you Anne, that's helpful! I've now made the change. The new profile is Unknown-502273.  Please don't hesitate to fix anything I may have missed.

It's amazing what you miss when you're asleep. Thanks, ladies!

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