Which John Constable married Catherine Comberford?

+2 votes
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Which John Constable married Catherine Comberford [widow of Sir Thomas Hercy of Grove, Notts] and had a Marmaduke Constable?

Raine & Clay (1836), state that the John in question came from the Constables of Flamborough.

 

WikiTree profile: Katherine Comberford
in Genealogy Help by Bree Ogle G2G6 (6.1k points)
recategorized by Jillaine Smith

3 Answers

+2 votes

We have her marrying a Marmaduke

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Constable-44

 

by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot (503k points)
+2 votes

Just to confuse the issue - I can't see any John Constable of Flamborough in one of the Visitations of Yorkshire but there is an "Ales doghter& sole heyre of Robert Comberworth or Comberford, of Somerby in Lyncolnshire Knight & of Sybell his wyff doghter of Sir William Argum who married Sir Marmaduke Constable, Knight, son & heyr to Sir Robert"

Then in Foster's Pedigrees of the county families of Yorkshire, Vol. 3 North and East Riding it's changed to "Catherine, daughter and heiress of Robert Cumberworth, by Sibil, his wife, daughter and heiress of Sir William Erghum, Knt, of Somerby, co. Lincoln."

Catherine is married firstly to Sir Marmaduke Constable, knight of Flamburgh, which he held of the king as of the palatinate of Chester, lived 29 Edward 3, 1355, will proved 5 August 1404,; and secondly Sir Thomas Hercy, Knt, made his will 1424.

I think I've read somewhere that Foster isn't always that reliable, but then Raine & Clay, don't cite any sources for their statement either.

Maybe we need to look for more information about a Marmaduke Constable though rather than a John Constable?

by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (373k points)
The early Constable pedigrees are in a state of chaos, except WikiTree's, which John Cherry has sorted out.

The editorial footnotes in Test Ebor are often based on what the editor found on his bookshelf, so they just reproduce the errors in other old books.  In this case Raine might have got his info from Thoroton's Hercy pedigree.

But since he's printing Thomas Hercy's will, he might have noticed that it doesn't mention a wife.  (Though it does mention a daughter Isabel).

And the first note in the Houses of Parliament article for Sir Thomas Hercy, states that he can't have married Catherine Comberford because he was married to a Katherine before Sir Marmaduke Constable died.  Unless as it states he was married to two women with the same name.

This is Marmaduke's will - where he does confirm his wife is named Katherine (Katerinae).

Perhaps the old version was right all along and Hercy married Sir Thomas Cumberworth's daughter.  If there was a Sir Thomas.

But the wife who got a papal indult in 1397 seems unlikely to have had a child by a second husband at least 27 years later, even if she was still living.
This is much worse than I initially thought :D ...

Hmmm... what should happen to the profile? Should it be merged with Catherine Cumberworth? Or should stay on its own? ... Should Catherine Comberford be marked as UNKNOWN?

This one is a pickel! Not sure what to do next here...

BTW ... after looking some more, I saw that HOP does not give Catherine's surname (probably due to some of the same discrepancies cited in this thread).

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/hercy-sir-thomas-1424

Might need to tidy up a wider area.  Bad connections play havoc with dates.

Hist Parl on Sir Robert Constable d 1401, father of Sir Marmaduke

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/constable-sir-robert-1353-1400

Thinks he was born about 1353, same date as given by ODNB.  Not later, though I don't see why it couldn't be earlier.

Says his wife Margaret Skipwith was the widow of Alexander Surtees d 1380.  If Sir Marmaduke was her son, he can't have been more than 23 when he died in 1404 leaving 4 young sons.  Just possible, but no slack.

Kills off Foster's statement that he was living 29 Edw III 1355, which came from the 1612 Visitation manuscript.  

Hist Parl on Katherine's brother Sir Thomas Cumberworth

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/cumberworth-thomas-1451

His will, 1450 pr 1451

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/LinDDoc/1:1.2?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

He's a bit of a puzzle - apparently of age by 1401, but doesn't seem to have taken up public duties until 10 years after his father died.  Hist Parl guesses he was very young, but in 1436 he got an exemption for his great age - after which he carried on doing the rounds until he died anyway.

My best guess for his DoB would be 1375-80.  This is consistent with his sister being of similar age to her husband.

So this idea that Sir Marmaduke and Katherine had a daughter Elizabeth b 1363

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p3172.htm#i95296

is dead from all directions. It would also mean Katherine would have had to be about 60 when her grandfather Sir William Ergham died.  Appears to cite Richardson, but Richardson doesn't actually say that.  He only says Stephen Thorpe jr's mother was "Elizabeth daughter of Marmaduke Constable".

Katherine's grandparents are also getting messed up

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1162.htm#i34884

There was a Sir William Ergham who married Sibyl FitzHenry and left her a widow in 1347 (CP2 Vol 5 p. 415).  But Katherine's grandfather was a later Sir William Ergham, who married Katherine Cressy and died about 1404, leaving 2 daughters and coheiresses, Julian and Sibyl.  Julian married John Aske, of Aughton, and died sp (he.then married Judge Gascoigne's daughter).

So where does this leave Thomas Hercy?  This Katherine wasn't the wife he had in 1397, but she was widowed young and could have married him later.

On the other hand, Marmaduke's 2nd son was called John, b abt 1400.  He could have married Hercy's widow or his daughter.

 

Hist Parl also has Joan Constable-53 as Sir Marmaduke's sister, not niece.  Her alleged parents mother seem to be just artefacts of confusion.  Marmaduke's son Robert d 1441 apparently married Agnes Gascoigne, who has been placed as the judge's sister, or his granddaughter, depending on which bad dates you go with, but the current favoured option seems to be daughter by 2nd wife.  The Anne we've got here seems to be a relic of the sister option.

PS Marmaduke did have a brother Robert, who had a daughter Margaret.  Mentioned in Joan's will, 1432.  Robert is named as executor of his half-brother Sir Thomas Surtees in 1435.

 

Joan's will, 1432

https://archive.org/stream/testamentaeborac30surtuoft#page/23/

Mentions her sister Katherine Cumberworth.  The editor thinks this is her widowed sister-in-law by her maiden name.  OTOH, the name of Thomas Cumberworth's wife is unknown.

 

+1 vote

Found another one

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cumberworth-4

Nothing seems to be known at all about Cumberworths in that era.  The only Robert on the radar is the MP, who made his will in 1404.

 

 

by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot (503k points)

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