Thomas Johannas Dudley Sutton- Illegitimate son of Sir Edward 5?

+2 votes
377 views

Greetings all. I have been working diligently to uncover the history of one branch of my family tree which is interwoven with this Dudley - Sutton weirdness. I have documented the pedigree from me to a certain Samuell Sutton who was born in 1655 in Stoke Hammond to parents Thomas Johannas (Dudley) Sutton Jr. (b 1630) Sutton-7902 m to Sarah (Andrews) Sutton in Buckinghamshire. This much I have documented. On ancestry.com (oh yes i know it's infamous for having alot of mythology mixed in with factuals) His father is a Thomas Johannas Dudley Sutton Sr. (i am still working on creating his profile on wiki but there is a record of his christening on the younger TJDS) who I am to believe is one of the illegitimate sons of Edward Sutton 5th earl of Dudley by way of Elizabeth Tomlinson. I have been searching for weeks to find any shred of evidence to prove this lineage. I have found clues which link my Sutton to the Dudley Suttons

(there are many references in this document)

I believe the elder Thomas Johannas Dudley Sutton Sr to be either one of the illegitimate sons of old Eddy & Elizabeth OR the son of perhaps Catherine Dudley Sutton who i do have good documentation on being one of the many so called illegit daughters of Sir Edward and Lady Elizabeth because she did marry a Thomas Dudley <ref> England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014. </ref> 

but I have not found evidence that they had a son Thomas (yet)

I thought maybe some of you who are more versed in genealogy research as well as this particular family line might be able to shed some light as I try to connect my lineage with the Plantagenets. 

pointing me in the right direction to complete my research would be greatly appreciated.

WikiTree profile: Thomas Sutton
in Genealogy Help by Lopi LaRoe G2G1 (1.8k points)
Hello my family ironically the suttons are married into the sutton dudley family therefore making them relatives by marriage. Are you a blood descendant if so I'd like to compare information. Please do get intouch

2 Answers

+4 votes
by Doug Lockwood G2G Astronaut (2.4m points)
thank you for the link. I have looked through about half of it and it would appear that it is dealing primarily with the Governor Thomas Dudley not the one I am looking for who is more obscure.

Our immigrant in the Peterson - Sutton - Dudley line is John Sutton who immigrated to virginia in 1713. The persons I am looking for are his grandfather and great grandfather, both named Thomas Johannas (Dudley) Sutton

I will continue to read this document but it does seem to be dealing with a different branch of the tree
+3 votes
I'm curious about the middle name, Johannas. Where does it turn up?
by Monica Edmunds G2G6 Mach 2 (28.6k points)

PS I also have an actual photograph of a birth record of John and Parnell Sutton's first born son Luke which i will presently upload to his profile. 

which can be located in the London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812 records; London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; Reference Number: P69/KAT1/A/002/MS017833

The ancestry.com link is to a Lancashire register in northern England

Text: 03 Oct 1630 Thomas fs. Johannis Sutton
Book: Baptisms (Baptism)
Collection: Lancashire: Walton on the Hill (Formby Chapel) - Parish Register, 1620-1780
I know and have deleted that as a source on his profile leaving the correct record. if you go to his profile you will see. also you can access the rest of the related profiles there

thank you

Sorry, Lopi, rereading my comments, they do seem a bit cold. But no offense was meant. It's just very easy to go down the wrong track (I've done it myself at least twice) and then you end up with something completely muddled. (Or in my case, the line was fine, but individuals with the same name and virtually the same birthplace and birth date were confused with one another, and I went merrily back for generations before finding the data that indicated I had made a slip early on. Just goes to show, it always pays to cycle back and dig the same ground again). 

Anyway, the line is best sorted out and nailed down before it goes on Wikitree. Your tree is highly speculative, to say the least. But there's nothing to indicate that in the notes. 

I don't think you realize how far apart these places are. Google maps is a great resource to check how far a marriage place might be from where births were registered, for example. If it's more than say, half a day's ride by horseback (say 15 miles?), look more closely. It's a red flag. People did move about, but unless they had an unusual occupation or a really unusual name or given name (say, Melchisedec the bowl turner) that might indicate a relationship, it's better to ignore people farther than say two villages over, let alone the next county. 

Unless you know where in England your immigrant ancestor came from, it's impossible to guess which family might be his. 

There are a lot of people and groups researching colonial immigrant ancestors (and many of them might be related to your Suttons). They could prove an invaluable resource for researching the family.

1. Was the Lancashire record the reason for the middle name? The middle name is still there, so should it be removed?

2. Which records show that the family in Buckinghamshire and the family in Dorset are the same one?

3. Which record shows the name of Samuel's mother?

4. Although Thomas's profile shows Samuel being born in Buckinghamshire, Samuel's says he was baptized in London. Which one is correct, or am I misunderstanding?

https://www.ancestry.com.au/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=785&p=surnames.coates

This version says John and Parnell had 2 kids in London.  Worth exploring.

 

What was the basis for Thomas Coates Sutton being the son of John and Parnell (who are supposed to have married in 1699 in Pennsylvania acc to Peterson-9244). Can they be the same John and Parnell who had two children in London (1711, 1713) after that? And then returned to Pennsylvania to have Thomas ca 1720? It's confusing. Where did John and Parnell die? And if there's no birth record for Thomas, where did the connection come from?

Never mind, I missed the death and list of their children above. I suspect they were married in England though and only emigrated once.
You already said that.  Sorry, I didn't see that post.
Lopi, the source for John Chapman Sutton's death in infancy is as stated in the comment: the  Buckinghamshire burial index, This is compiled from the parish registers. https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/buckinghamshire-burial-index. Unfortunately it is a pay to view site but you can do a search without payment and will be able to find the entry.

You could if you wish also check the entry from the Buckinghamshire Family History Society itself (cost £1) http://www.bucksfhs.org.uk/index.php/research/36-requested-searches/15-burial-searches

There is nothing in the Philadelphia source to say where and when John Sutton was born.

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