Distinguishing the two Baptist Hicks families

+11 votes
390 views

All the recent research by wikitree volunteers into pre-PGM Hicks ancestry is shedding light on and raising questions about a variety of published sources concerning this and related lines. (Hicks of early Virginia may also be impacted.)

We are using g2g to break this down and examine pieces of it. Somewhere along the line, James Hicks was claimed to be son of a Baptist Hicks who turns out only had daughters.  But it now appears possible that there were two Baptist Hicks:

  1. Sir Baptist Hicks born 1551. This is the knight who only had daughters
  2. Baptist Hicks born in 1524 who apparently married Mary Everhard and had sons and daughters. This data appears to come from a 1938 genealogy that may be checked out here: https://archive.org/details/moorealliedfamil00defo
We will use this g2g thread to examine this and other sources and better document on wikitree what is known about this second Baptist Hicks. 
WikiTree profile: Baptist Hicks
in Genealogy Help by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (779k points)
I am finding quite a few people who have the same names as their neighbors.  While reading about one of my Chapman relatives last week I found at least 4 other men with the same name in different counties in the same state at the same time!  

As I work, I'm putting notes on profiles for others who come after me to be aware that there are people living in the same general area with the same name.  If I have time, I start profiles and add sources for the other people with the same name to be make it abundantly clear that these are separate people.   I think I've been working on four different John Morses and four different Joseph Barksdales.
I have joined the waiting list for the 1938 online book. someone else has it checked out. Any of us? I'd like to know exactly what it says about the Hicks lineage and about this second Baptist Hicks. Thanks.

6 Answers

+4 votes
Thanks so much, Jillaine!  That sounds like it will be difficult but interesting!!
by Paula J G2G6 Pilot (249k points)
+3 votes
The Haxtun "Signers of the Mayflower Compact" book cites Barton Genealogy p.189-190 for the ancestry of Fortune Hicks.  I've looked at several Barton genealogies but not the right one.
by Anonymous Horace G2G6 Pilot (568k points)
RJ, by Fortune Hicks, do you mean Robert Hicks who sailed on the Fortune?
+3 votes
This does sound interesting to follow. I have not taken my Hicks line further than William Isaac Hicks (1774-1846) who is purported to be a son of Vines Hicks (1760-1803). I have run across Baptist Hicks before but am not sure if he is ancestor of my Hicks.
by Emily Holmberg G2G6 Pilot (112k points)
+1 vote

A number of people chose to respond in a different thread (the one about Ellis Hicks); I'm copying their responses over here to keep them with this topic:

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We can certainly say that James and Phoebe weren't half-sibs, and the standard version shows Mary Everard as James's mother not his wife's.

commented 1 day ago by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot

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The Tansor Hicks don't sound the least bit Puritan to me. I'm pretty sure Sir Ellis was Catholic, absolutely a Royalist, and his brother Thomas was an associate of a suspected Papist. These were not enthusiasts of the Reformation.

commented 22 hours ago by Ben Buckner G2G6 Mach 2

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Thanks Ben. James Hicks has been -- rightly or wrongly -- associated with the Gloucestershire branch.

commented 21 hours ago by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot

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For some reason, I can believe Sir Baptist Hicks as a Puritan.

commented 18 hours ago by Ben Buckner G2G6 Mach 2

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FindMyPast has around 30 Thomas Hicks, Hickes, Hix, and Hyx baptized between 1570 and 1590, which means there were probably something like 50 of them. It's not quite a needle in a haystack, but it doesn't sound promising.

commented 18 hours ago by Ben Buckner G2G6 Mach 2

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But no Baptist Hickses.

The traditional ancestry of "Fortune" Hicks says James was the son of a Baptist Hicks, who was the cousin of the other one.

If there's any trace of the existence of this other Baptist then obviously it would point to a connection with Robert the ironmonger.

FindMyPast has references to a Baptist Hicks dated 1542 and 1562, in Boyd's Inhabitants of London.  But they could be just Boyd footnoting that Robert was the father of Sir Baptist.  Need a subscriber.

commented 15 hours ago by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot

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by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (779k points)
The leathersellers don't advertise a research service, but I imagine they'll do lookups for a fee. They do have an archivist. It would be hard to imagine that nobody's ever checked before, but you never know. http://www.leathersellers.co.uk/contact/
He definitely wasn't a master or warden anyway. Apperently, their records are pretty complete, so I'll bet there's something in there.
I reviewed this. It's got nothing in there about leathersellers. Nothing about the "other" Baptist Hicks; it focuses predominantly on the Sir Baptist Hicks. It admits that the pedigrees of this line are a mess, with one (Harleian MSS.) inserting a generation between 1. John (and Margaret) and 2. Robert and Juliana-- that insert being a Thomas...

He repeats the g-d Sir Ellis of the 14th century b.s. but admits "no pedigree exists that goes back that far."

I don't see any branch that includes "cousin Baptist." Where the heck did this come from?

Woodd Smith is regarding Berry (1833)

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213875;view=1up;seq=272

as the "authentic pedigree".  More of a salvage attempt.  Berry knew about Robert's mother Margaret, from the will, but he's carefully non-committal about Margaret's husband "John".

Woodd Smith falls into the trap of equating this hypothetical John with the John who died in 1546.  But that John left an heir John age 3. (Oh the irony of that footnote about stuff in books not checking out with the records)

Re the Tortworth/Berkeley Hicks, there are plenty of wills in the local Gloucs. jurisdiction.

-------------

John Hickes of Tortworth, 1590

Lands in Tortworth, Berkeley, Hinton?, Huntingford?
Oldest son Thomas, sons John Hickes, William Hickes

---------------

Robert Hickes of Berkeley, 1575
friend Robert Russel, John Higgons, sister Margaret Russel, daughter in law Latteren Cocke? ... sounds like DSP

---------------

Agnes Hickes of Berkeley 1605

this one's a mess, damaged - I see Elizabeth and Margarett... maybe daughter

-----------------

Richard Hickes of Cromhall 1558
Edithe my wife, manor of Cromhall (big fish here), father's last will and testament, mother still living, brother Morgen - I'd say this one is fairly important

---------------

Thomas Hickes of Cromhall 1583

Son William free lands, wife Agnes

------------------

John Hickes yeoman of Tewksbury 1557

Wife Margaret (very hard to read)

-----

Alice Hicks of Cam 1593

seems to be nee Holister

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Generally they seem to prefer CK spellings over X spelling in Tansor.

This guy has some of the Cromhall ones abstracted

http://www.combs-families.org/combs/records/england/gls/cromhall.htm
Robert Hicks (London Ironmonger) d. in 1557, mentions cousin Richard of Cromhall. This is _probably_ Richard who devised the manor of Cromhall in 1558. If we take that as fairly confident, then Richard and his brother Morgan, who are the sons of Thomas, are probably in the same generation as Robert. I find most "cousins" in wills tend to be 1st cousins, so a good working hypothesis is that Robert (d. 1557)'s father is a brother of a Thomas of Cromhall. Robert also has a brother Richard H. and a cousin Christopher H., who is not mentioned in the Cromhall wills.
So probably, there's a third brother with Thomas of Cromhall and Robert's father.

So maybe what it looks like is

Brother Richard's son Adrian Hix, Taylor was apparently buried in St Michael Wood Street London 27 Aug 1596

I think Christopher may be Christopher Hickes, Innkeeper of Boston, Lincolnshire, died testate 1567 (mentions son Jasper, probably later mayor of Boston)

The next thing is the Thomas & Margaret (Atwood) Hickes vs Robert Hickes (of London) suit of 1547. English Baronetage https://books.google.com/books?id=ciwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA341#v=onepage&f=false supposes that they're brothers, but this could also be his uncle. I don't think it's his father.

Sometime in the 1530s, we have a suit dealing with the will of a Thomas Hykces and his son Robert. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7482245

The 1533 Boston, Lincs will of Richard Hyckes is probably critical. I can only find short excerpts, but it has been published in http://www.lincoln-record-society.org.uk/?publications=lincoln-wills-1532-1534. It mentions "To my brother Thomas Hyckes of Tetbury my gowne furryd "To William Hyckes off Crommell my gowne" - it has to be this family.

Thomas Hyxe of Tetbury on the 1522 militia list. http://www.tetburyfamilies.co.uk/militia-1522.html

With the 1547 suit, I kind of wonder if maybe what happened was that Robert's father died young and an uncle (Thomas) occupied some inherited lands during his minority and then had to be sued to get them back.

A lot of the Gloucs wills have been abstracted here http://willsdb.gukutils.org.uk/GLS/WillsH.html

---

Thomas Hykes son of Johannes Hyckes of Charvill Gloucs, husbandman, apprenticed in Bristol on 11 Aug 1534

Thomas Hyckes, merchant (prob. mercer) master of apprentice Johannes Smyth in Bristol 31 Jul 1536, wife's name Elizabeth

Johannes Hicks son of Johannes of Bristol appr. to Jacobus Browne, capper 14 Jan 1537/8

Johannes Hycks son of William of Mark in Somerset, husbandman appr. to William Payne draper, 13 Feb 1540/1

http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/History/bristolrecordsociety/publications/brs14.pdf

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I need a huge blank wall upon which to map all this stuff out.

I'm confused by the 1830-written pedigree by William  Berry.  I know that later this tree morphs to lead to Robert of London, leatherseller and PGM emigrant, but he's certainly not in Berry...

RJ, please remind me where we find the 3-year-old heir of John who died 1546.  So you're saying that somewhere in time, John who died in 1546 with 3-year-old heir John Jr, got "attached" as husband of widow Margaret who was living in 1557 (and therefore father of Robert d 1557)

Does Robert Hicks' 1557 will name siblings?

The ironmonger was orphaned, so I adopted him to put notes and sources on

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hicks-4039

Berry was a clerk at the College of Arms, so he had access to their records.  He also knew they weren't reliable, and were still being doctored to create fake ancestries for new clients.  He started compiling his own books, which were mostly cleaned-up versions of College records collated with manuscripts at the British Museum, which people thought were trustworthy back in his day.

In this case I don't think he had a clue who the ironmonger's father was, any more than anybody else has.  But everybody seemed to be convinced he came from Tortworth (for no actual reason), and John probably seemed a better guess than Thomas.

 

This is interesting, same place the immigrant baptized his kids.  Could be brother.  Would be interesting to see if the original has any more info.  Probably not - Wakefield would have found it.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:NLHC-64N

 

Lincoln Wills 1532-1534 is available at a fair number of libraries, but I probably wouldn't be able to get to it for a couple weeks at least.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/lincoln-wills-1532-1534/oclc/1001084600
+1 vote
I've been trying to get this document to a cleaner condition before sharing it, but it's taking so long. I'd really like people's input-- especially those who have responding here.  Please feel free to use Google's "suggested edits" and/or "comments" feature to mark it up, ask questions, add details, etc.

You'll see I'm not quite done.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LRe15B0QdC5Z3z4acXqPRiamy1tto5vn7Svqckr8Qes/edit
by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (779k points)
+1 vote
Jillaine, I found this book today It tell' about the Hicks family. It was written in 1887.You may have seen it already.

American Ancestry,Volume 1, page,39. It's in google books.
by Teresa Davis G2G6 Mach 3 (37.9k points)
I looked at page 39. There appears To be something like a footnote at the end of the paragraph referring to "[295]" but I can find no place in the book where these references are listed.  I'm going to look again from my laptop in case it's a case of google docs not displaying fully on my mobile device, but in either case, this appears to be a highly derivative work not listing original sources.
I looked at the book through my laptop and still could not find where in the book the sources are listed.  I also found other digital copies of this book and similarly could find no sources.

I now believe the [295] notation is not referring to a source, but is a number for the "genealogy" -- i.e. ,this is the 295th "line" covered in the book.
It's the google book , New York Genealogical and Biographical Records,Volumes 38-39,Page 73.

It's an obituary of Benjamin Doughtery Hicks ,which tell his line of the Hick's family. This was published 1907.

Teresa, the NYGBR reference  is an article.  That other you first mentioned is a book.  In either case, neither offers sources for the claims made in them. 

Teresa, have you reviewed our analysis of the sources about this line?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LRe15B0QdC5Z3z4acXqPRiamy1tto5vn7Svqckr8Qes/edit

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