Guntram der Reiche vs. Guntram im Nordgau

+6 votes

Once again I'm bringing up Guntram den Reichen whom we have conflated with Guntram, son of Hugo Graf im Nordgau (Alsace-122). This previous G2G discussion ended somewhat unsatisfactory concerning the identity of both. Since Guntram der Reiche is considered the progenitor of the Habsburgs it is, in my opinion, an important profile but one without a bio. Since dates and family information are considerably different for the two and for what we have in WikiTree it seems important to decide which way to go so that a bio can be generated and the alternatives discussed appropriately.

Our Guntram (Alsace-122) is born about 904 and died 1 Apr 946. Dates for the historic figures are all over the place so that it seems impossible to discern a birth date. There seems to be agreement, though, that Guntram der Reiche died around 970, possibly 973, and Guntram im Nordgau sometime after 952.

Our Guntram is married to Itha von Montfort or von Calw, the historic Guntrams have no marriage known for Guntram im Nordgau, and name of wife unknown for Guntram den Reichen.

Our Guntram has a son Lanzelin, inexplicably named (Calw) Habsburg, Guntram im Nordgau has no known descendants and Guntram der Reiche has a son Landolt who may have been Lanzelin, Graf von Altenburg, whose descendants became the Grafen von Habsburg.

WikiTree profile: Guntram Nordgau
in Genealogy Help by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (614k points)

1 Answer

+6 votes

See , Leo does list his sources. Here is another version -;i=2782324.  Still another take - GUNTRAM (-after 952).  The Vita Sancti Deicoli names "primogenitus Heberardus, secundus Hugo, tercio Guntramnus" as the three sons of Hugo[116].  The Notitiæ Altorfenses names "Guntramus filius Hugonis" in relation to a donation of property to the monastery "pro anime sue remedio"[117].  Jackman refers to "extraordinary confiscations…imposed on the rebel Guntram" in 952 but does not cite the primary source[118].  "Otto…rex" donated several named properties "in pago Elisaza…et in comitatu Bernhardi comitis…in villis Brumagad, et in Mumenheim et in Grioz et in Walahon et in Bernnesheim et in Moreseim", confiscated from "Guntrammus", to Kloster Lorsch by charter dated 11 Aug 953[119], presumably as a result of this event.  "Otto…rex" donated property "in ducatu Alamannico in comitatu Burchardi ducis Durgeuue…in villa Askinza" which had been confiscated from "Gundranmus comes" to Kloster Einsiedeln by charter dated 6 Jan 958[120].  "Otto…rex" granted property "in locis…Cholumbra et Hitinheim" which "Guntramnus in Hillisazaas…in comitatu in partibus Hillisazius Ruodolfo prænominato" held to "fideli nostro Ruodolfo" Kloster Alanesberg by charter dated 6 Apr 959[121]. (  Still more discussion -!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/guntram/soc.genealogy.medieval/5MQchq_qjbA/EZydIxIkkVYJ .  Doesn't look like there is anything definite.

by James LaLone G2G6 Mach 6 (63.2k points)
Agreed, sources for both but nothing definitively connecting the two. That does not negate that what we have in WikiTree is false for both of them. And in order to correct that I think we have to become either splitters or lumpers. The lumpers' point of view would be that we have two people similarly close in time and geography to suggest they are the same, the splitters might follow MedLands and separate our Guntram from his parents and instead create another Guntram without wife and children.
The Genealogie Mittelalter website does link the two, though from what I can understand of the text it also suggests that there is no proof that they are the same.

Charles Cawley in his Medlands database uses ES volumes as his basic source for all his genealogies and they separate in the latest version of Volume 1 (I'm not at home at the moment and can't check exactly which section).

I think I am more inclined to be a splitter rather than a lumper, partly because you can't indicate on WikiTree that the Etichonen parents are both certain and uncertain.

Helmut if we don't use Calw as the LNAB what would you suggest is appropriate?   Technically they are not Habsburg until a few generations later (?).

How about "Etichonen" for the family we have with the name Alsace and Calw. I put the following on Alsace-122:

Guntram was the third son of Hugo, Graf im Nordgau.[1] Birthplace and date are unknown, he died some time after 752, the year he lost much of his lands as result of an otherwise not described rebellion.[2][3]
Many sources equate this Guntram with Guntram dem Reichen, the progenitor of the Habsburg family.

For Guntram den Reichen one could use Breisgau and for his son LandoIt/Lanzelin Breisgau with Current Name Thurgau?

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