possible spurious family needs to be looked at please

Question

this lady is unsourced, there is one daughter Marie supposedly born in Normandy, the other children are all listed as born in Perche.  Can somebody please take a look-see and say if there is any sort of possibility they are real?

Comments

Perhaps related to this family? http://http://tng.famille-morin.com/getperson.php?personID=I2483&tree=15sep2020

I believe he had a job for the crown..

Sources were a history of Quebec and a Catherine Baillon?

Le Sueur, Minnesota was named for explorer Pierre Le Sueur

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hi Gail, the link you entered tells me it can't be reached.  Pierre Le Sueur is one person, no evidence he is relevant to Marguerite Le Sueur other than same family name.

Answer 1

have detached the incorrect connections with no evidence to support them, with notes on relevant profiles so they can be found if evidence ever comes up to warrant reconnection.

Answer 2

https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/marguerite-le-sueur_8696164

yes it is accurate. she actually had 7 kids.

hope this helps

 

Comments

Hi Lexi,

Unfortunately, it doesn't really help.  The source you cited here is a set of Ancestry.com search results.  You would need to point to primary sources (such as baptism, marriage, or burial records) or respected secondary sources from the period to resolve the issue Danielle raises.

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Sorry, but that is just a family tree, with no sources showing.  Same with Geni link you gave below, which has some obvious errors in it, like a daughter named Gagnon when the husband's name is Lefebvre, and the dit name Descôteaux carried back to those dates,  errr, sorry that's a local name here.

Answer 3

https://www.geni.com/people/Marguerite/6000000013492517646

 

Answer 4

I took a brief look at the line, and I think it might be worth some time for someone who wants to do French translation. 

Some of the Febvre family does go from France to Canada. That much seems to be true. But some more research is needed to see if there's any conflation. 

Apparently, there was a Jehan le Febvre, Seigneur d'Eculville living in the 16th century (source), but he appears to be about a generation older than the DOB given for the hubbie of Marguerite le Suer. ... 

Without whipping out the fine tooth comb and the FR dictionary ... the source linked to above looks like the Jehan they're citing might be the brother of the ambassador to Rome and England: Antoine le Febvre. Catholic Online has an article about what appears to be a later Antoine (gov-gen of Canada), too. (Note that I'm not seeing a dau. Antoinette, as given by the line on WikiTree).

Another thing ... the alledged son -- Jehan II ... it's possible he has a related baptismal entry in the Protestant Caen registers: bp. Sun 04 1568. Caen would match the listed locations on his parents profiles.

 

BTW ... FOUND A FEW ORPHANED DUPLICATES. They're unsourced, and abandoned so please merge them out.

 

 

Comments

Thanks Bree, the unmerged match on Marguerite Sueur's profile leads to something interesting. 

The profile for Pierre Julien Lefebvre contains a lot of interesting comments. It also links to a document, La Framboise - an unfinished genealogy of the metis Laframboise family which contains a mass of charts and dates and apparently not one source to back up the data (for members of the Lefebvre/Sueur family group, I notice that locations are all over the place: not a good sign). The comments added in the profile bio question this genealogy.

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Thanks Bree, only problem is, Lefebvre as a name is equivalent to Smith in English, and there are a number of them who came here.  I adopted the profile since it was orphaned and in my lineage, finally get around to looking at it, hmmm, not at all sure about any of this.

Nice one on the seigneur d'Éculville.

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Pierre Julien Lefebvre had even more errors, he actually never came here, it was his son Pierre who came around 1644, having signed a contract in Perche.

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Bree, why are you changing the names from Le Sueur to Sueur and Le Febvre to Febvre?  Inaccurate, the names became Lesueur and Lefebvre.

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Not during this this time period. As the Caen Register shows, it was just a typical French particle. "Jehan le Febvre" (alleged son of Marguerite) ... so the particle is stripped from the LNAB (last name at birth) and goes in the CLN (current last name at birth) ... which is why I flipped it for the search engine, so we can find it and fix later.

Typical WikiTree paragraph on LNAB rules with particles:

"The common ‘de’, ‘du’, ‘le’, ‘la’, ‘de la’, ‘von’, ‘van’ before a surname does not go in the LNAB field; it goes with the surname in the Current Last Name field while the surname, ONE word, goes in the LNAB. Example: Last name at birth: "Villefort", Current Last Name: "de Villefort". There are some exceptions to this rule, such as de Vere or de la Mare. Members of these families should have both words in the LNAB field."

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats

There's only one other exception for the old time block that I can think of off the top of my head ... which is Delaval (aka de la Val, de la Vale, la Val, le Vale).

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Well, I had always understood that these rules were for Nobles only and have never applied them to non-nobles. On the contrary, as I believe using them  for people who are not verified members of noble houses could be misleading, as it gives the impression that they were noble when they were not.

There is a noble family called Le Febvre (or Lefèvre, etc), it is the Lefèvre d'Ormesson family (the recently deceased author Jean d'Ormesson was a member of this family).. but I can assure you not all Lefèvre/Lefebvre/Lefébure are not of noble origin... Same for Lesueur/Lesieur, not to mention Dupont, Delarue, Delevoye, etc.

Also Leroux / Le Roux, Leblanc, Lebrun, Leriche, etc... none of these should be assumed noble until their noble origin can be traced.

And another point - the "de" particle is by no means a sign  of nobility. Some noble families like Chabot and Talon do not have it (note that not all Chabots and Talons are related to nobility). On the other hand, non-noble families have the "de": de Gaulle for instance, or many families of Flemish origin.

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Totally agree with Isabelle, that is specific to Euro-aristo project.  Most of the records I have seen for names like Le Febvre actually did not capitalize either word, ie it was written le febvre.  Because it originates from a profession, ie a smith.  We are not taling noble families here, never mind wishful thinking of some that they would be.

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Interesting ... I didn't expect for the convo to take a strange turn into nobility. Wasn't thinking about that acutally... but the general practice of stripping out spaces, as well as particles like "OF" (de, du, etc) and "THE" (le, la , etc) from the LNAB ... (which in practice improves findability -- UI stuff that benefits us, unites members, and stems duplicates).

Since I've seen at least 3 versions of Febrve in the search engine (LeFebrve Le Febrve, and Febrve) ...  there should be some way to standardize the LNAB ... And it looks like the convo is evolving into just that:). I myself do not mind the Delaval approach, especially if users are going to search specifically for that spelling. I opted for the WikiTree standard and searched for the noun.

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but you never see them named just ''Febvre'', so to put the name that way is inaccurate.  And the Wikitree standard you are using is limited to one project.  It's not a broad standard.  The main rule that applies would be ''use their conventions''.

Standardization is an old issue around here.  ;)   Lots of places use it, have argued against them myself, as one man's standard is another's misnomer.  Just because you see a name written mostly one way in one location, doesn't mean it applies everywhere.  Case in point, the name Beaudoin is the current form used in this province (Québec) and those who standardize use it exclusively.  BUT, I know a Frenchman through social media whose name is spelled Baudoin.  So caveat emptor.

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Again... I saw 3 versions of the spelling in the search. Policy is not how I found the duplicates.

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You could also have Baudouin or Beaudouin. they're all pronounced exactly the same.

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Bree, spelling of names, let alone anything else, is absolutely wild back in the era we are talking about.  That's why the search function includes variants.  But ''use their conventions'' is the prime directive here.

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Guys... with all due respect, IMHO through repetitve practice over the years ... it makes no sense to put the cart before the horse when tracking down the wonky lines ...

For me personally ... My only point here is to help locate identities with regards to a possibly "spurious" line. So my answers are in context with that to keep us on topic and not intended to take us way out into left field.

At the time of search, nobody had established just who the family is, so "policy" could just as well be ... get rid of the line. But we didn't know that either.

So step 1: HUNT. ... I have no idea how others search, but by by giving us an extra link -- which is really the only actual de facto technical function of the CLN (current last name) --  I made it really easy for everybody to pitch in and go up and down search.

That does not mean the CLN can't be changed... of course it can. And eventually ... the person who started the thread might discover who the family is and what they called themselves.

That aside ... It didn't take that long to see where Marg's son Jehan's DOB came from. To be blunt, it's a date culled straight from the Caen register. But that in itself does not constitute proof because the entry did not mention parents. And the sibling "Antoinette" looks a bit suspect IMHO, considering that Antoine was a public person associated with Canada. ... That IMHO throws us a little bone behind the intentions ... since the family eventually descends into Canada.

But again ... the family is still a question mark AND ... I also noticed that Margaret le Suere is a person found in Louisiana, USA c.1700ish, who is talked about by a recent author. I didn't find her name for an earlier period (at least not yet). ...

So at this point... I don't think we can even be sure that Marg is a real person. But with all the interest... I am hopeful that the person who started the thread with the intention of figuring out if we are looking at fake profiles or not... will find out. And once that's done... then it makes sense to determine what policy applies and start being strict with rules and regulations.

Of course... that doesn't mean someone can't change the CLN right now and remove the second search link... But it won't really do anybody any favors until identity is established and all duplicates (if any) are taken care of...

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What does IMHO stand for?  Marguerite is a commonly used given name for the era, and for quite some time after, and families tended to repeat given names anyways, naming the kids after parents, grandparents, godparents.......  And Lesueur while not a very common name (at least not on this side of the big pond), is not a rare name either.  So the presence of a woman with a similar name doesn't prove much by itself unless there is a spouse and children also being the same,

Answer 5

The profile of daughter Marie Le Febvre is artificially connected to the Marguerie family through daughter Marthe Romain, whose mother is in fact unknown (she was baptized in 1589 and the record does not name her mother, which is normal for the time). So this Marie should either be renamed unknown and disconnected from the Le Febvre/Sueur pair, or (more simply) disconnected from Marthe Romain and her father.

With that out of the way, the Sueur/Le Febvre family may have been drawn out of a real family, the dates "adapted", possibly some family members added or conflated with another family to fit them as posh ancestors of pioneers. Classic.

Perche and Normandie are not necessarily exclusive - a large part of the former province of Perche is now part of the modern Normandie region.

Comments

Thanks, I knew Perche was located between other provinces, but wasn't sure on which.  Marthe Romain is said to be baptized in Rouen by Fichier, with a date.  Any possibility of putting a link to her baptism on her profile?

Also, Fichier origine on Marie Marguerie says the paternal grandparents are Thomas Marguerie and Marie Houllevique, but her brother François Marguerie's fichier puts a maybe on that.  Any verification on yes or no would be nice.  ;)

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oh, and the purported brother to Marthe Romain, Pierre Romain, again no sources for that one.

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Here is a source for Pierre Romain: baptism on 25 Jul 1588 in Rouen, Saint-Vincent Parish, AD76 BMS 1580-1590 4 E 2192 image 35/45, middle right. Same parish, same father, exactly one year before Marthe: there is no doubt they are brother and sister. I am going to reconnect him.

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sounds good, thanks Julien