The DNA of John Perrot Jr born 1575 ca death 1668

+2 votes
Having spent onward of 7 years researching the Perrot family connection this man who's the likely grandson of Henry TUDOR VIII is well known and his DNA is preserved in the DNA of his sons:  Dr. Richard and Robert Perrot born to Prunella Perrot in England.  John Perrot Jr. born 15 90-91 to common law wife of Sir John Perrot one  Sybil Johns Perrot,  was endentured to an englishman,  Daniel Gookins  in 1623 the year of his emigration to Virginia.

In 1630 after his 7 year indenture was completed,  he brought his wife Prunella and sons to Virginia where he had been given land.    You can verify this at GENI, the electronic ancestor site,  where his known sons and wife are listed with proper citations.  I have seen their DNA and they match my own about 23/25 first markers then depart to a cousin line status sharing only 55 of 69 markers on Y chromosmome.  This difference  is due to my line having a Sutton Dudley heritage as in Sir Robert Dudley.  His son John Perratt II 1565 was admitted to Grey's Inn 1580 and he left 1583.  Thus the son of Sir John Perrot married to Prunella Perrot with sons Richard and Robert are fully known.   My ancestor was Fostered by Sir John Perrot and Sybile Johns Perrot at Carew Castle after Sir John was granted the castle by Queen Mary, his alleged 1/2 sister.  His acceptance into the inner workinging of the Court of 3 Tudor Monarch and their acceptance of him as an illegitimate 1/2 brother is without question for various reasons I won't share here.  But the news is that John Perrot and Prunella and their sons are now well established at Geni.  D. Charles Rice 1948 of the Nebraska Rice's
WikiTree profile: John Perrot
in Genealogy Help by
retagged by Peter Roberts
When you say you've seen their DNA, do you mean that their bodies have been exumed and DNA taken or that you've compared your DNA with other claimed descendants of them and they're the same?
No Jillian:  The sons of John Perrot Jr. 1590 ca -1575?  are known to be Richard and Robert and their known trianulated DNA is established on Family Tree....I only match them below marker 25 then we spread apart as about 10 difference above marker 25 to 67.  That is how I determined that their line is Le Teuton Sutton and my line per my father is cousin Baldwin II of Flanders.  DCR 1948

4 Answers

+8 votes

Hi Anon,

Sir John Perrot (1527-92) was not the illegitimate son of Henry VIII according to his ONDB biographer

The history of his own illegitimate son John (b c1565) is not yet known as far as I am aware but it would be great to see the evidence you have for your links - and also to know who you are :)

Kind Regards

Anne Rees



I just happened across this line once again. I had found this note, and it further discredits descent by Richard, son of John Perrott and Prunella Unknown, FWIW:

User "Ray's Extended Family Tree" at says: "Richard was previously listed as son of John Perrott & Prunella, but this is debunked via DNA evidence and further research." The Group affected is Descendants of Richard & Robert of Middlesex VA, and the Haplogroup R1b1b2.


It is always amusing to me a literal descendant of 5 Tudor lines one of which is through the Daughter of Sir John Perrot Margaret Lovelace Mercer burreied at St. Mary's Tenby in a Sarcoghogus 15 ft wide 10 ft high and 3 ft deep carved of marble that the present day sooper sleuth geneaologists can tell HISTORY and the family of Henry VIII his son Edward, Mary I and Elizabeth I that the man he was about to give preferment to but died before he could was not his son by Mary Berkley.  Although she was not a virgin when she had him she was the great grandaughter of Henry VII Treasurere....William de Berkley after Bosworth field.  So Mary was known to the Tudor's before her marriage to Perrot.  Each of the Kings of England and the Queens believed him to be the Kings son....and treated him as his son and called upon him to perform various tasks....His DNA is known because he is the son of Henry VII who's father was Owen Tudor  the 1/2 brother of Henry V they were French Normans of The 3rd son of Edward III  by John Beauforts son Henry Bolingbroke IV.   You don't have to believe me but if you think the Court would stand for a non royal person marrying the relect of Henry V then I tell you that the circumstances at Conway castle in 1400 when Bolling broke met the Tudors and they settled their war in wales without fireing an arrow in anger came at the birth of Owen Tudor who was called to serve HENRY IV and V at age 9.  DCR  Family Researcher And DNA compiler of all the Norman English Famlies who are cousins at Tudor/Perrot/Blount/Baskerville/ Ferris/ Rice and le Teuton de Sutton and Baldwin II .
Dr. Richard Perrot does not have the same Father as his Brother Robert perrot.  There is an indication of an NPE while husband John Perrot Jr. was in America.  That's all the further I take this line.  DCR
+3 votes
If John Perrot born according to ODNB (the only source for this profile) in about 1565, died in Virginia in 1668 why did he not inherit from his brother, James, when James died in 1637? Why did he have to indenture himself in 1623? Did he really live to be more than 100 years old?  Should he be dis-connected and the Parrot parentage be explored? No sources have been presented to support this parentage for the man who died in Virginia.
by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (294k points)
John Peratt II born 1565 son of Robert Dudley 1532 died in Virginia 1652-1653 per the family record of Thomas Price of Liether arriving in Virginia on the Star 1552 the year prior to his grand father's death.  Perratt II was father of Perrot ap Rice 1598 who used the name in Wales before he left for America prior to 1640 and Thomas of Leither was his son by wife Pricilla ap Rice  of Tenby who stayed behind in Wales.  We know that the DNA of Robert The Quaker Hughes in  America is a match with zero distance from the writer: Dale C. Rice 9th ggson of John Perratt II meaning that Perratt II or John Perrot aka his son fathered him.  The triangulation to the Hughes Family was told to me in 1978 by my father Samuel G. Rice 1887 before he died.  The Native American component of this family story is now updated as the woman left behind in the Virginia Wilderness was the mother Nicketie of John Rice Hughes (Perrot) who used these ID's to Keep Croomwell off his trail in the USA and that Thomas Price of Leither was met in Virginia by RIce Hughes of the James River 1652 the year prior to the death of John Perratt II the grandfather.   Thomas Rice of Leither arrived on the Starr according to Ships Logs and married into the Native American Family Pughe/Atkinson according to DNA research recently completed here in the USA.  The DNA trail from 1565 by Dudley's Son to me was outlined to me in 1978...and the DNA has surfaced over the past 8 years of constant online research.  DCR 1948
I know nothing about Events in the US, my whole interest is in sorting out the Perrot's who remained in England. I accept that you can demonstrate your descent from the man who settled in Virginia. However I see nothing that demonstrates any relationship to Sir John Perrot. Research in England suggests that John, bastard son of Sir John, was dead before 1575 when he would have been no more than 10 years old and surely that cannot be ignored when making the connection. What primary sources show that these are one and the same person?
The tomb of Margaret Mercer nee Lovelace as her mother was Johanna Lovelace is all scarlet on the Lovelace side the shield on the Left or sinister side is all Perrot, Berkley, etc.  Meaning Margaret mercer- ap Rice was the daughter of Sir John Perrot.
+2 votes

The story in the OP inserts an extra generation:

Sir John the alleged bastard of Henry VIII

John b 1565 admitted Gray's Inn 1580

John b 1590 indentured to Daniel Gookin

But I'm not clear which one Sybil Jones is supposed to be the mother of.

by Living Horace G2G6 Pilot (573k points)
edited by Living Horace
But from the terms of Sir John's settlement in 1575 I figure his bastard son John was dead by then.
The John Perrot Jr of 1590 ca born to Sybil Johns Married had her last son by Sir John 1528 about 1590 and is named Jr.  Not John Perratt II 1565.  Thus the man who married Prunella Perrot and had two sons Robert and Richard and was the man who was sponsored by Daniel Gookins may have died in 1668 owing to the wrong birthday of my 8th grandfather Perratt II who entered OXFORD Grey's Inn 1580.  The names perrot and Perratt are similar but Perratt II is a place name meant to distinguish him from sons of Sir John.  He was fostered by Sir John at Carew Castle but because he was a sexual predator and got a family member pregnant or in the family way as my father put it....he was disowned and declared dead by the family so he was not able to inherit anything from the Estate of Sir John Perrot who's son James of Havorford West did inherit after all his brother's had passed away or left for America.  DCR 1948
The settlement that assured Sir James Perrot of his inheritance was made in 1575.
Interesting story surfaced there "got a family member pregnant", which probably wasn't a good reason in those days to be disowned. Mayhap the story was actually told of Sir John Perrot. Who was his mistress, Sibyl Johnes? His step sister? There's a thought.
A man fathers a string of bastards and then disowns one of them for not being a saint?
Mr. Horace:  John Perratt II 1565 is not the same person as John Perrot Jr. born to Sybill ca 1589-90 who married Prunella Perrot and had sons Robert and Dr. Richard Perrot by him.  They are fyi  I-1 M253 haplogroup  I match them up through marker 24 exactly then drift off to cousin status at some 10 markers difference above marker 24.  Perratt II was enrolled Oxford 1580 at Grey's Inn stayed until he as cast out of the family about 1583 for getting Sir John's Daughter, his foster sister pregnant that year.  That family is known as Robert Phillips 1583 and they emigrated to Con. USA in the great migration of 1620's.  My Dna matches that Phillips line 23/25 and 33/37 markers as I recall some 5 years any event:  Perratt II was most certainly alive in 1575 but was left out because he was not a natural son of Sir John Perrot he was his Fosterd Son   given to him by Robert Dudley 1532 to raise with his sons of the same era.  DCRice 1948 Nebraska Rices....see my page D. Charles Rice to catch up my 8 yeas of research and FAmily Tree connections to this story in particular.
Sir:  The name for Perratt II is a place name and is my 8th great grandfather who was fostered by Sir John Perrot and Sybil Johns Perrot.  John Perrot Jr born ca 1585-90 is the father of Robert Perrot by Prunella.  So the man you thought to be Perrot in this case is Perratt II and was born 1565 to Robert Dudley and Unknown woman.  Sir John Perrot entered Perratt II at Grey's Inn 1580 and was disowned in 1583 when Perratt II got Sir John legitimate daughter with child.  That Child born 1583 is Robert Phillips and his line emigrated to Connecticut.
Sybil John was the common law wife of Sir John Perrot and mother of Sir James perrot, and John Perrot Jr. born 1585-90 before Sir John was placed in the Tower for treason.  His sons Thomas was by his only legitimate wife by Anne?  Cheney...of the sinque Ports.  His son by Sybile Johns was a choir director at a Welsh Church of England and had no issue.  Believe his name was William...not sure these days. past 70.
I would like to learn more about this Dale. I am I1 M253 Parrott
Sir John Perrot was certainly the Kings Illegitimate son or the DNA of all his bastard brothers would not be the same as his I-1 M253. Those names I have traced Dr. Richard Edwardes, Thomas Stuckley, Owen Tudor sired by Henry IV Bollingbroke at Conway castle where he had the parents cornered Easter 1399, thus all the Tudo males including Henry VII and VIII carried Norman Blood.   The line splits with the cousin Decoursey line and le Teuton de Sutton who's sons and cousins are also I-1 M253 presumabllythe same as Rollo and William the conquorer.    To you r specific question:  Sir John Perrot 1528 by Mary Berklye (The former treasurer for Henry VII grand daughter) is known to have a  solid line of Perrot's Through son Thomas Cheney Perrot the legitimate son.  Sir John Also had sons with his common law wife Sybile Johns , William, a choir director, Sir James Perrot, John Perratt II 1565 fostered son of Robert Dudley and unknown Woman.  That DNA is of the Baldwin upline a cousin of Sutton line.  that's how I could spot the difference in DNA as we were a match up through marker 15 then split to cousin lines.  The Last son of Sir John Perrot 1528 is listed as John Perrot Jr. Ca 1590 who married Prunella Perrot and had son Robert and Richard Perrot.  He was indentured to Daniel Gookins in 1623 but by 1629 had brought his wife over and had 450 acres on the Nasesomond River.  He drops out of sight 1650 about the time of the Quaker Movement in Ireland/Wales.  My line is the 1565 John Perratt II line enrolled Greys Inn 1580...but was declared dead in 1583 for getting sir Johns Daughter by Anne Cheney pregnant in 1583.  He was therefore no longer able to inheret any lands from his borthers after his foster father's death in the tower 1592.   I'll be glad to go on if you like...But I've 9 years and 10k hours at this and it is all veriified in the DNA that crosses the Atlantic with my 6th great grandfather John Rice of Dedham Ma. son of Perrot ap Rice 1598 son of John Perratt 1565.  DCR
James Perrot:  As it Happens I just got my results back from Family Tree Family Finder and they confirm my cousins are:  Thomas Perrot 12/12 Donald Perrot 12/12 at 1 distance from Evan Hagan Perrot zero distance.  My marker at #447 is variable 28 or 29.. my 1/2 brother is 29 and I am 28 repeats at that marker.  The Linking name is Adkins and or Phillips;  JohnPeratt 1565 got Anne Perrot Phillips with child in 1582 and was thrown out of the family that year.  The son Robert Phillips carries my same DNA fromJohn Peratt II 1565 father of Perrot ap Rice 1598 who is the named father of Proved 6th great grandfather John Rice of Dedham Ma. 1624 born to Tamzine or thomasine Rice (Frost is the alleged family name for his mother)....Now what you need to understand is that Family finder just provided me the the following Phillips/ Peratt Cousin markers at  zero distance 111 markers tested  Roger Phillips David Edward Phillips Daniel Phillips and Richard Phillips at 67 markers.  Dale C. Rice 8th great grand son of John Peratt II 1565  I1-M253 Haplogroup
Dale Rice, I am a descendant of Benjamin Parrott ( Lawrence Parrott 1600’s). Is there any relation to those you mentioned? Thank you JKP
Yes:  Certainly.  John Perrot Jr. born ca 1590 is the son of Sybil Johns Perrot and Sir John Perrot.  He is not the full blood brother of Robert Perrot because their DNA is seperated after marker 10 or and that's more likely a cousin status or uncle to Both  Robert Perrot and Dr. Richard Perrot.  They share a common mother but not the same father during the time that John Jr was in Virginia for 7 years without his wife.  You have to look as  downline Y for Benjamin compared to ea. of the 1/2 brother would be my first thing to do.  DCR
+2 votes

I didn't comment last summer when this topic was posted, largely because I know nothing of the Perrot/Perrott surname or any of the Tudors. But since it's re-energized itself the past several hours... What I can offer an opinion about is the aspect of DNA. And there's something about yDNA that I think might be helpful to clear up.

"I have seen their DNA and they match my own about 23/25 first markers then depart to a cousin line status sharing only 55 of 69 markers on Y chromosome. This difference is due to my line having a Sutton Dudley heritage as in Sir Robert Dudley."

If I read this correctly, a supposition is being made that yDNA can show a degree of STR commonality and then diverge significantly along descent of a family tree. It cannot. The Y-chromosome escapes crossover during meiosis and remains haploidy at zygosis; a new diploid genome is formed that includes every nuclear chromosome but the Y. The Y-chromosome is solely from patrilineal inheritance and the only way it changes is via mutation, not recombination or DNA sharing.

It is possible for men to look like matches at a low testing resolution, for example 12 or 25 markers, but not share an ancestor in the genealogical timeframe. We most often encounter this in males who have a common set of STR repeats, like the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Unlike autosomal DNA, though, correlation on the Y is not affected by percentage of DNA shared. STR matching is not additive, it's cumulative...and it's about estimated genetic distance: an STR marker isn't either a match or not a match; the number of repeat differences has to be evaluated, as well as whether or not the markers differing are multi-copy, palindromic markers where the infinite allele model would come into play.

Without knowing what actual STR values are involved, no one can make an assumption about matching only from the fact that 23 of 25 markers were the same. At 25 markers, a genetic distance, or GD, of three already moves the match out of likelihood in the genealogical timeframe.

But each panel of tests continue to refine the possibility of a relevant shared ancestor. At 37 markers, FTDNA will describe a GD of 5 as "possibly related," and a GD of 6 as "not related." At 67 markers, a GD of 8 or 9 is "only possibly related," and 10 is "not related." If carried out to further resolution with a greater number of markers tested, it doesn't matter whether or not two men were considered a possible match at 25 markers: if the evaluated genetic distance at 67 markers shows that they are not related in the genealogical timeframe, they aren't.

In my own case, we have a total of 31 matching men in our yDNA project (a subproject of the extremely large Williams DNA Project), 16 of whom have taken the Big Y full-sequencing test and a 17th whose full-sequence results are pending. Among us are 20 with the surname Williams and 11 with four different surnames. The full-sequence tests have allowed us to understand roughly what this ancestral tree looks like. The earliest in-common SNP is R-BY22194, and we believe the split into all five surname lines occurred sometime after 800 AD but before 1100 AD. This is outside the genealogical timeframe and occurred in the British Isles before surname adoption.

The point here being that, by way of example only, for STR matching at 67 markers I have these identified, other-surnamed men: two at a GD of 4; one at GD 5; two at GD 6; and three at GD 7. And we know the most recent time we would have shared a patrilineal ancestor is circa 1000 AD, more likely 900 AD. Nothing is impossible, but it is highly, highly improbable that two men who share a common ancestor born circa 1565 would not be within genetic distance for a Y-STR match at 67 or 111 markers.

I did look at the Parrott/Perrott yDNA project at FTDNA. There is one kit there with the surname Rice in the Ungrouped area. I don't know if this kit is pertinent to the discussion here, but looking at the first 25 STRs the only Group shown to which this Rice kit might possibly be associated is Group "I1a, Francis Parrott of Chowan Precinct, North Carolina," and even then the Rice kit is GD 3 from that Group's modal. From those data--at least what is publicly displayed--I can't see any evidence of a definitive connection between the Perrotts described here.

What looking at the FTDNA project did lead me to is a Guild-registered One-Name Study that has been underway for at least 12 years,, referring to itself as "The P*rr*tt Society." Clever use of wildcards. wink They even produce a quarterly magazine for members.

The Society has a page where the history and lineage of the lines are discussed: I can't comment because, again, I know nothing about these families. This shows Sir John Perrot (1527-1592) married twice, and had "a number of illegitimate children" including, with Sybil Jones (ferch Rhys): "John, b ~1565. In the Inner Temple Register, there is an entry, dated 5 June 1583--'John Perot, of Haryve, Co. Pembroke, 3rd son of John Perot, Knight'. Possibly also the son of Sybil Jones. He died without issue." The Wikipedia page for Sir John Perrot provides some information about how the rumor began that John was a bastard son of Henry VIII; one reference used there is a 2010 publication by The P*rr*tt Society.

I chimed in only about the yDNA matter, and I can find no DNA evidence presented here on WikiTree, on Geni (the profile there shows this John Perrott dying at about age 18 or 19 without issue), or at The P*rr*tt Society that seems germane to John Perrott (~1565-1665, Perrott-112) or his father Sir John Perrot (1527-1592 Perrot-4). In a quick Google search, I could turn up nothing that seemed reputable regarding a yDNA study that included Henry VIII.

by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (355k points)
when you say that John Perrat II 1565 died without issue it's because no dares challenge the history of a person who was officially whipped out by the authorities as a ploy to punnish and if possible deprive him of life.  The Same person named in the obituary is alive and well in August 1629 plundering a merchant ship at Havorford West not far from his home.....That's conflict should be looked at.  Our family shows he did not die and so does Pembrookshire journals on line.  This is the person who my father told me got a 12 year old grand daughter pregnant and indeed Perrot ap Rices Daughter Margaret ap Rice gave birth to a boy named John Rice in Newport and was taken in by the Church...Margaret never married but lived to be recorded as giving a tithe to the local church after 1664.  Most likely she could not have children much as Margaret the Queen mother of Henry Tudor bore her son at age 12.  Lastly:  My comment is about authority...who's the authority when the geneaologists conclude wrongly that someone died....when in fact they didn't?  My 8th ggreat granmother on my father's side I proved married young even though everyone at GENI thought her court case at age 14 was to settler her estate...No it was to transefer her propterty to her husband as she married young and had children....We the down line children found proof of her marriage when and where and had copies of the Church register admitted to the so called scholars at GENI from Clair Danes Church London the day and year of the marriage and the year later birth of their daughter.  I did that....John Perratt 1565 was declared dead by his family but lived to be very old in Virginia on the James River dying in 1652-53.  Kindly make a note as a provisional finding in dispute with records.  DC RICE 1948
Edison Williams:  The entire thrust of recent DNA matches on GED MATCH are made exactly the way I described as the cousin lines who test vary from each other from time to own 1/2 brother who's father was 1/2 brother to my father varries from me 3 alleles on 2 locations on the 12 marker test.  His Biological 3rd great grand father and mine are the same man Edward Rice of Pomfret Connecticut born 1734.  Our Cousin line Harry Storm Rice shares my 1/2 brother's markers because his uncle is my father's 1/2 brother....But I also match Harry storm at the same markers where my 1/2 brother and I differ 3 alleles on 2 markers.  Now that you know this can and does happen in science you can review for yourself the 8 lines I sutuddied all grandsons of Le Teuton De Sutton on Family Tree.   The fact is Family Tree did not know this about cousin line variations....I found It published it to Dr. Manfred Kayser of the Netherlands back in 2013 and the breakthrough in forensics police work is built upon finding the cousins even is slightly different and zeroing in on the suspect DNA....While I take no public credit for the findings of these new police techniques my work has been sited in over 400 University research papers around the world.  Father to son there is no variation on Y chromosome unless a permenant mutation takes place....but between cousin lines  as in Blount, Baskerville, Perrot, Neville, they are grandsons of Le Teuton Sutton but vary from one another occasionally.  When they do they agree with the Sutton main line of Le Teuton, if they differ from le Teuton the agree with one another at the site where the variation occurs.  Dr. Kayzer did the double blind study on twins and their faces noteing the X chromosom'es part in placement of exactly the same feature in his massive study of european twins.  DCR 1948  just FYI
Here's the definitive answer for anyone who's interested in the Necketie and John Rice Hughes story.  I match the only known son of Hughes and Necktie Robert Hughes the Quaker  25/25 zero distance.  Which it should be if and only if John Rice Hughes is the named he used in Virginia for Perrot ap Rice born 1598 to Margaret Mercer 1580 daughter of Sir John Perrot and Johanna Lovelace Mercer.  Robert Hughes would have been 1/2 brother to my 6th great Grandfather proved by the University of Texas to be John Rice of Dedham Ma. 1624 and raised by Rev erend John Allin of Dedham the first minister of the Puritan Faith.  Perrot ap Rice was trying to return the 13 year old boy to his mother "TAMZIN: but could not be reunited so Reverend Allin took him in"  All researched and proved true.
Dear Edison:  My cousin lines are matched by my 3rd great grandfather to both his line and mine.  My cousins father is also the father of my eldest brother.  We share DNA identical but 3 sites  24/25 markers.  I am 29 repeats and my cousin line and 1/2 brother are 28 repeats.  Thus my father and I and my son share the 29 repeats but the cousin line does not.  Same is true for Sutton Dudley line cousins who vary as much as 2 or 3 alleles on a particular site but when they agree with each other they depart from the Scion Le Teuton de Sutton.  Likewise when they differ from one another at a site they agree with the Scion at that location.  I made note of this across Neville Perrot baskerville lines and sent the results of my findings to  Dr. Manfred Kayser head of genetics in Amsterdam:  Author of the twin studies of 2013.  DCR
Dear Edison:  Robert Dudley is my first cousin through John Guildford his grandfather and mother Jane guildford.  He has no son's who lived past 1750.  My uncle's line (now deceased ) had male dudley's for 6 generations out of a brother line.  So now all I have are two hits  John Dudley 1850 23/25 and Robert Sutton 1637 59/67 markers.  That's as close as I can compare.  With your advanced skill perhaps you could look for me  H 1957 on Family Tree is the Sutton match and I am 303301 on Family Tree.  Dale C. Rice
Dale, I'm not Edison - he's the professor, I'm just a dabbler, but I'd like to provide my opinion, what strikes me as the most useful thing you could do now, while Edison is away.  That is to attempt to upgrade all of the relevant tests to 111 STR's.  The current standard for STR comparisons is the Y-111 test, and we tend to extrapolate the lesser tests to the Y-111 level.

It's my understanding that the first 12 STR's, and then the first 25, were those first to be found that showed considerable changeability, and correlated well with popular haplogroups.  Then they found more, leading to the Y-37 test, then the Y-67 test, then the Y-111 test.  Now they are studying over 600 additional STR's, to determine which will be useful and which aren't.  The jury is still out on them, but confidence in the first 111 chosen is pretty high.

Looking at a Y-25 result - you have to realize you only have 25 of a possible 111 values, so all you can extrapolate from 23/25 is an estimated 102/111, with a very large error margin.  A 59/67 result would extrapolate to about 96/111, with some error margin too.  Without more testing, we really can't say whether the additional markers will result in a closer or more distant relationship between testers, but more data can never hurt, should make everything clearer.
First Rob:  I thank you for your kindness and interest in helping me solve this Gordian Knot of fact/family history and actual history.  Keep in mind I am a Pensioner living exclusively on Social Secutiry of some $1300 US Dollars a month.  So recently paid down outstanding expenses and may have some funds over the next 6 mos.   Second:  My father was the GO Breeder of fine registered livestock in East NEbraska 1900-1930 and was a follower of MENDEL in his breeding practices....Thus when he selected a wife in 1929 it was as much for her DNA as it was her social skills and nursing skills to his disabled mother due to stroke.  He was 43 and she 20.  Our Family is directly tied to the Dudley's as Maternal First Cousins and our Uncles Family is directly tied as Male descendants of the John Dudley line....I have one 1/2 brother from this uncle who may be able to help but honestly has such a low level test it may not be useful enough to include.  So the two Dudley/Sutton accounts are H1957 on Family Tree born 1637 is the known 6th cousin of Sir Robert Dudley through Geni relationships....and my own family faces which we count 9 living and deceased exact doppleganger faces which come directly from Tudor and Valois Kings due to the 4 seperate female lines of descent assembled in my father's Breeding Back experiment.....A recent artist rendering of Elizabeth brought my sister's face straight away....Dad's lines extend from Ethelralda Mault and Perrot ap Rice grandson of Henry VIII by John Perrot 1528 and Mary Berkley Pugh.  Mother's line is the most direct and carries the most Recent Tudor DNA of Henry Carey as our 15th great grandfather and the 8th great grandmother of Anne of Cleaves Central Spain Mt. DNA of J2a handed down to each of the CHALFANT Twin Girls of Henry VIII in 1541 after the divorce was granted.  So it is in this imperfect family storm of information, faces that can be measured and can see some of them I have assembled from Henry VII and VIII and Dudley as my 9th great grandfather at D. Charles Rice along with the electronic links showing how the family connects through every possible family of Power of the 1500s.  That's on Face Book.  Again I thank you, the DNA and Doppleganger evidence is so strong and precise that it represents a kind of FAMILY Insider Joke my father played on all of us....To have such affiliation with a Pig or Swine Farmer was his particular joy.  He told me about this in 1974 just before he passed and I have been working on it every day since 2011 when I retired and the personal computer was available for the first time.  I would not have spent 9 years of my life every day reading and copying the information that I have assembled for a family book and treatise which I sent to Dr. Kayser of the Netherlands in the cousin DNA studies of known cousin Variations who agree with most every site of the scion :  Le Teuton de Sutton and when they disagree with him the agree with one another.  Likewise when they disagree with each other they revert back to le Teuton values.  Those familys are Sutton / Dudley/ Baskerville/ Blount/ Perrot/ and Neville/  Marshall and Rhys ap Thomas of Dinefer Barons.   D. Charles Rice....I will move as quickly as I can but from my point of view the FACES tell it all at last count we have 9 in one family....not an accident.  DCR 1948
The values we have identified are to a 2nd cousin at 25 Markers and and 7th cousin to Sir Robert Dudley at 67 markers.  The logic is reverse to that which we are normally trying to establish at 9 generations farter away from the 6th cousin The Values would naturally be farther away thus you have proved by logic my positon as a direct grandson of one his children has to be more negative distance than closer to the you have proved a NEGATIVE....sir.  I thank you.  Please review with the good professor when he returns.  My line is the only living line descendant from Robert Dudley as his other son lines died out in Italy 1750 and cannot test.  The Tudor Markers should be discernable in the female lines direct from a daughter line Mary Carey or the son she bore him Henry Carey my14th great grandfather Maternal?  I will make every effort to get the 111 marker test done...since the proved 6th cousin is so far afield that's actually a positive for my case I believe.  DCR
I have recently completed Family Tree Family Finder and now have 5 confirmed matches in Phillips 67/67 zero distance M253 and the other 4 are 101/ 67 the test I took.  What this means is that Anne Phillips son Robert born 1582 the year John Perrat was still at Grey's Inn's as the son of Sir John Perrot has down line children that match my DNA exactly zerot distance....that's 5 DNA matches.  DCR 1948
Reference the cousins of LeTeuton de Sutton of English descent.  Rhys ap Thomas, Blount, Baskerville & Perrot each show their respective relatedness on Geni as cousin lines to Sutton.  They vary from Sutton as many as 6 or even 10 alleles on various sites...but when they do they agree with each other.  When they vary from each other their alleles revert back to Scion numbers exactly.  Thus cousins can vary.  My own half brother and I vary 3 alleles on 2 sites on a 12 marker test....we have the same 3rd great grandfather and my father's 1/2 brother was the father of my eldest brother.  DCR

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