What do we know about Pineshooter obijwe wabasha?

+4 votes
803 views
Looks problematic. Any idea if he was real ?
WikiTree profile: Pineshooter Ojibwe
in Genealogy Help by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (934k points)
I do not subscribe to Ancestry, is there documentation there? I would question it. First you are making Red War Bonnet an Ojibwe, but his son is listed as Dakota. Two different tribes that belong to two different language groups.  That is like saying Bob & Mary JONES' son is Michael SCHMIDT!  Makes no sense.  Also Wapasha is listed as a Dakota name - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapasha
The Ancestry trees this profile seems to be based on are complete garbage, they have this supposed Ojibwe man as the brother of Chief Powhatan of Virginia,  and both men listed as the sons of Powhatan’s brother (although one lists that brother as the wife of Pineshooter).  The man might possibly be real, although I think there are few if any records of individual Native Americans in the Great Lakes area in the early 1600’s.
same as Red War Bonnet. This is a combination of tribes that do not seem reality based.
was red war bonnet real? or he is another made-up ancestor? (I'm trying to attach g2g's to the individual profiles; maybe that's not the best thing to do?)
I believe he is made up.
These are my people. Not made up. Read my answers in various threads
Wapasha IS a Dakota name. It translates to Red Leaf, Wapa is leaf. Sha is red. His mother was Ojibwe, wherein lies the confusion. His half brother, Mamongazida was an Ojibwe chief. My 6th great grandfather spoke both Dakota and Ojibwe.
I believe this is the origin of Pine Shooter. His actual name may not be known, but he was Dakota and believed to belong to Wahpakute. Wahpa means leaf  and kute means to shoot, so Pine Needle/leaf? He was a real person who married an Ojibwe woman. Their son, my 6th great grandfather, became Chief Wapasha, "Red Leaf" of the Mdewakanton Dakota, which pushed them further south.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/a3cde44dec8d4c6a8ed79067bf386d12
Sonja, I don't see anything in the article you linked to about Pineshooter. Please clarify. Thanks.
The article translates Wahpekute to "Shooters among the leaves"
I am trying to sort out these relationships right now. I was dismissive of a Virginia connection until a few years ago. Suddenly DNA was a thing. I am without question a member of the Wabasha family. That is documented. I also happen to DNA match to people that claim descendancy from Powhatan Confederation. That surprised me. These are mostly people born and raised in Virginia. I am from North Dakota. My father was 100% Scandinavian and my various dna tests reflect that. All my Native comes from Mom's side. My mom is from St. Paul, Minnesota. My great-grandfather was born in Mendota, Minnesota, a huge fur trading hub, where my cousins still live, as the Mendota Dakota Tribal Communit, mostly descendants of Chief Taoyateduta aka Little Crow. I want to make a few points: Natives traveled much farther than most people realize, and not just in North America! Sometimes the travel was intentional, sometimes it was involuntary. Trading goods at far flung places at times was a real thing. Kidnapping and slavery were very common. Slaves were bought and sold and traded between tribes, sometimes multiple times. This usually meant trading women. Trading children or uniting them in marriage to form alliances was common. There are many ways that people of different tribes and languages interacted. People are people. The same patterns of behavior exist today across many cultures and languages. Since records are non-existent that far back in the wilderness in Native culture, I am relying on oral tradition, DNA and common sense. I have formed a small group that are looking at family surnames closely associated with Powhatan/Pamunkey/Nansemond, etc. I know from preliminary research, that the tribes are very much more interconnected than the average person realizes and just like U.S. presidents, the chiefs are related.

4 Answers

+3 votes
Did you look in ancestry.com. his wifes name is mentioned. Will keep looking.
by Living Jones G2G6 Mach 2 (20.5k points)
Lexi, thanks.  We *are* seeking the origins of this legend but need something far better than online family trees and findagrave memorials.
This person appears in several Ancestry trees, some totally unsourced, the others list as a source “Ancestry Family trees” with no sources ad infinitum.  There is nothing to suggest any of this line ever existed.  Nothing makes sense, ridiculous Hollywood Indian names, dates from before any records and even before any Europeans arrived in North America, people who lived 1000 miles apart having children together, men married to their sons or fathers, man fron one tribe has child from second tribe who has child from third  tribe...

The Hollywood names have been given by Euro Canadian to Euro American anglicize versions of what the name really meant, Pine shooter was not his real name but it would have been
Wakute Wazhazha Mdewakanton Wazican Wáȟpe šá. With Indigenous cultures the names that they were from the spirit world and a name that was recognized by family member who already in this world.

Thanks, Darrell. I appreciate your knowledge of naming conventions for this group of people.  But do you know if this person was real?
I will make some phone calls the people of his community should know.

Thanks
Any and a half later...

Darrell, were you able to learn anything about this family's claimed existence? Thanks.
I have made a long post regarding the *Wapasha/Wabasha and explaining the Dakota and Ojibwe/ Chippewa connection. The family is real. I am a descendant My cousin works at NARA and authenticated our relationship 25 years ago.
+2 votes
If you go to find a grave his great great granddaughter susanne istagiwn

 ita-za-ho-ta-win pinnishon graham is mentioned
by Living Jones G2G6 Mach 2 (20.5k points)
+2 votes
His wifes name was opechanaoanough
by Living Jones G2G6 Mach 2 (20.5k points)
That was a Name of a male Powhatan chief. Can't be right.
Opechancanough was the brother and successor to Powhatan chief Wahunsenacawh. However, I am NOT ruling out that a descendant of Opechancanough was married into the Wabasha family. My dna is connecting me to Powhatan confederacy families in Virginia and I am a direct descendant of Wapasha born 1718 in Minnesota. He's my 6th ggf. His father is supposedly Pineshooter (Translated) His mother was Ojibwe. sonjachilds9@gmail.com
0 votes
The Wabasha/Wapasha chiefdom is a heritary chiefdom of the Mdewakanton Dakota Sioux. I am a direct descendant of one of them, my 7th great grandfather, born 1718 in Minnesota. His mother was Ojibwe. He had a half brother Ojibwe Chief, Mamongazida of the Reindeer Clan. Chief Wapasha's daughter Mahpiahotawin (Grey Cloud Woman) married the notable Scot fur trader, James Aird. My descendancy in Minnesota reads like a Who's Who of the region. Further, Aird goes back to royalty in Europe.

Here is where a lot of the confusion comes in: Firstly, the person's name could change many times during their lifetime. Think of it as nicknames. They did not necessarily have a fixed first name that stayed with them. It could change due to a notable event in their lives. Secondly, we are dealing with times where the tribes were interacting with the British, French and sometimes Spanish. The tribes translated the person's name into their own language and the Europeans did the same, so often it's not really a different name, but the same name in another language. For example Wapasha means RED LEAF in Dakota. La Feuille means The Leaf in French. Thirdly, names in Native languages are usually spelled phonetically because of no written language. Spellings vary a great deal. I have never found a made up Chief of this line. These chiefs are all, real historical people. However, I cannot vouch for the veracity or origin of each name assigned to each person. I go by the dates of birth and death. I am actually in the process of trying to sort out names right now. I want to be accurate, but for the reasons described above, accuracy is subjective, in relation to each culture. These cutures were very intertwined. While the Ojibwe and Sioux were historical enemies, they did experience truces at times. My 7th great grandparents married during such a time. It can be difficult when searching for an individual who has several names attached to them. They could all be "correct" in the context of individual culture.

 I had personally thought that being related to the Powhatan Confederation was fiction as well, but Gedmatch is giving me distinct matches to specific families that claim descendancy. Both Virginia and the tribes have excellent records. Just upon a glance, I have come within a couple of degrees of relationship to Pocahontas with my Cox family. There is a story that a wife of Wabasha was mixed and a descendant of the brother of Chief Wahunsenecawh, Opechancanough. This comes down through oral history in the Wabasha family from a respected clan mother. Keep in mind that Natives traded, formed alliances, intermarried, took slaves, just like their European counterparts.

I have also come across evidence of relationship with John Rolfe. I am directly descended from Cox, Hampton, Byrd and other notable families in Virginia.

I hope that gives some insight into what I see as the major issues of identification. I welcome any input, research, etc. My best e-mail is sonjachilds9@gmail.com. I am on Ancestry as SonjaLendeChilds, on Gedmatch, Geneanet, Geni, 23 & Me, Ftdna and more.
by Sonja Lende G2G Rookie (200 points)
The only people documented as descendants of the Powhatan confederacy are the descendants of Pocahontas and some of the members of the Chickahominy, Nansemond, Mattaponi, and Pamunkey tribes in Virginia (all are very small tribes).   Lots of people claim descent through fictional people, made-up trees, and even fictional tribes.  Autosomal DNA cannot connect you to someone who lived three hundred years ago.
Virginia and the tribes in Virginia to my surprise, kept good records, so if one can show lineal descent, it's safe to say that there's a good chance that their DNA can connect you. There are ancient DNA samples that I can sometimes connect to via Gedmatch studies. The people I know are isolating shared segments on chromosomes. DNA doesn't lie.

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