Carolingian a LNAB?

+8 votes
I’m fascinated by the discussion Helmut started on connecting people to the correct profiles and such. I noticed that one of the links led me to look up “Carolingian” as a surname and got lots of hits.

I may be stepping out here in an area I know a lot less about than others, but in my Saxon studies I understood that “inga” “ingas” and “ingan “ (and, I supposed “ingian”) were descriptors of people’s and not a person. And, Frankish being a Germanic language would have used something similar to describe descendant/s of or the people of so-and-so. It appears that the designation of Carolingian would indicate a descendant of or the people of Carol/Charles/Carl.

Is the use of Carolingian still acceptable as a surname? What was the usage then? Someone forgive my ignorance and school me.

Thanks ahead of time.
in The Tree House by Pip Sheppard G2G Astronaut (2.8m points)

1 Answer

+10 votes
Best answer
I guess "Carolingian" is a result of the predominantly English speaking WikiTree clientele, particularly early on. The modern Germanic ending would be -ing singular and -inger plural, and the C would be a K.

Historically the family did not have a name as such, that was given to them later, in the East Frankish realm it was introduced in 965 by Widukind von Corvey as "Karoli", in the West Frankish realm after 991 by Richer de Reims. That then developed in the literature in Latin via Karlenses, Karlingi, Karolini to Karolingi.

In the absence of a family name the use of a dynastic name such as this certainly has its justification. Whether it should be in English is another question.
by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (617k points)
selected by Pip Sheppard
Helmut, I was hoping you’d answer my question. I can count on you to give me “the scoop,” as we say here in America. Thanks!
The main problem with the Carolingian dynasty is that at least by the end of Charlemagne's reign, they ruled most of Western Europe, which means do we go with the German version of the dynastic name or the French, or even maybe the Dutch?

It wasn't until a few generations after Charlemagne, that they essentially split with some ruling Western Frankish Empire (what we might think of as France) and others the Eastern section (now mostly Germany).

The other issue is that each time we make a change to the LNAB we are effectively merging profiles and too many merges from A > B > C > D apparently causes problems.

I do think the Honour Code about Accuracy is important when it comes to naming standards, but also that sometimes we have to be a bit pragmatic and something like Carolingian that is at least half right might be better than using Karolinger for some of the profiles and Carolingien for the others?
The last paragraph (your recommendation) makes perfect sense to me.

When WT first started, were there controls in place about LNAB or did those come as problems arose?

Ahhhh . . . the ten million dollar question!!  There were no controls in place for LNAB for a long time here on Wikitree.  Guidelines were discussed and written, changes were made, but people didn't necessarily follow them.  It was finally determined that Wikitree needed to limit access to pre-1500 (where the bulk of 'issues' with regard to LNAB are) profiles.  And those of us involved with these profiles finally got a bit of a break!

FYI, EuroAristo has a list of naming standards:

Darlene - Co-Leader (along with John Atkinson and Doug Straiton), European Aristocrats Project

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