Louisiana categories not findable by geography higher category

+3 votes
Hi, just tried finding categories for families who moved to Louisiana during New France era for that location, there is no tie-in to location categories higher up the classification table.  Can someone make this more logical please?
in Policy and Style by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (481k points)

2 Answers

+3 votes
Best answer

The categories are somewhat tangled as people created categories and put them in what they thought were proper places before there was much organization and real thought about historical place names. However, a group has been working hard on creating a Francophone portal and in connection with Project Quebecois, on a structure for Nouvelle France place names.

Category: Nouvelle-France has the following parent categories : CategoriesHistoire de France | Spanish History | Canadian History | Amérique du Nord | US Southern Colonies | France | Québec History .

It also has the following subcategories: Acadie | Canada, Nouvelle-France | La Louisiane, Nouvelle-France | Île Royale .

There is a parallel set of English categories. Category: New France has parents   French History | Spanish History | Canadian History | French Colonies | France (en) | US Southern Colonies . Its subcategories include only one place name - Île Royale

There is a cross reference from Category: Nouvelle-France to Category: New France but no indication that there are more place names on the French side.

It would appear three things break the chain to higher region categories especially on the English side.

First, while there is a parent category Amérique du Nord on the French side, there is no parent category North America on the English side.

Second, there is no parallel English category for La Louisiane, Nouvelle-France and no reference from the category Category: New France to see category Category: Nouvelle-France for further subdivisions where  La Louisiane, Nouvelle-France can be found.

Third, Category: Louisiana First Families does not have either Category:  La Louisiane, Nouvelle-France or an English equivalent as a parent.

If  Category: Louisiana First Families had Category:  La Louisiane, Nouvelle-France  as a parent, it could be found easily through the French side. 

And if there were a new Category: Louisiana, New France which were a parent category for Category: Louisiana First Families, and a subcategory of Category: New France and if Category: New France were made a subcategory of Category: North America then the chain would be complete on both the French and English side.

If this would fix the situation, I can fix it for you.  This would be in keeping with practice elsewhere in regional categories where there are multiple language paths down to the the lowest level where locations are in the native language of the time, which during the New France era would be French.

by Mary Jensen G2G6 Pilot (108k points)
selected by Danielle Liard
Hi Mary, yes, the thing is a tangle.  Not sure there should be 2 categories French/English or not, that has been one problem with the translation to create a Francophone portal, ideally we should not have an English category and a French one,  When we do, unless place names can be automatically placed in the right one, then we wind up with 2 different lists.  Which would possibly both be incomplete.

Any way to make the higher categories appear in both languages on the same page?  I know Guy put in a fair amount of work on getting location categories for Québécois project done.

There are pros and cons to how to handle multiple language issues, and it is a topic of current discussion in the Categorization Project.  Guy was a member of that project and served as the liaison to Categorization.  It would be good if you could join that group and monitor it for discussions that would affect Quebecois.

If that's too much for you, I'd be willing to serve as the Quebecois liaison to Categorization for the time being.

At present bilingual or trilingual category names are not permitted, but that is under discussion currently. While it isn't officially permitted it is being done with native languages that don't use Roman characters.

 I think the real limitation is that a category "name" is a very rigid piece of code that won't tolerate any variation in characters and won't accept a / character most other characters that would be a reasonable language divider other than perhaps (). So if the creator didn't know the proper term in both languages or the exact format including which language is primary, we would get a lot of accidental duplicate categories.  Those are the kinds of issues currently being discussed as well as the practical issues of getting proper bilingual names on categories created by unilingual users.

We also don't have the capability for two categories to display together as one page or the kind of automatic redirect that occurs when profiles are merged. That idea has come up, but so far the best  we have at present is a cross reference that can be clicked on to get from a category in one language to the equivalent category in another language.

The present model is that hopefully the name in the landing category (the one put on the profile) will be in terms that are the same in all languages.  That often works for the lowest level location name but not always.  It usually doesn't work for non location categories.  Above the landing level, the current model is to have separate language streams in each language with cross references from one language to the other(s).  Several countries pick a level in their locations below which it is not practical to be multilingual and say that all locations below that level will be in the native tongue.  But as expected, there are then some problems with areas where the official language changed over time.

Guy's approach was that since French was the local official language and the native tongue in the area covered by Project Quebecois (and all of Nouvelle France for that matter), the landing levels should be in French. Those are normally the towns/cities.  Above that level, it was worked out what the English and French terms were and somewhere there is a list of when to use Bas Canada and Lower Canada and similar terms, but I've lost track of it. (I'm behind in all the projects I'm part of these days).  So that is what I based my suggestions on.  

But I don't think Guy had finished sheparding the process through revising the upper part of the category structure into bilingual for all the periods from Nouvelle France through today.  I'm pretty sure he did not get the English side all done or the links from English to French categories and vice versa.

Ales has been working on ways to automate more of that kind of work, but we only have one Ales so it isn't going as fast as we would like.
Guess I'd better join categorization, this is not the only time I have encountered issues with categories that were total anachronisms.  Don't know how much time I can spend on it.  I can ask Guy whatr he was aiming for.  The various Bas-Canada/Upper-Canada etc are covered as to time period in Québécois project guidelines, even though they are not strictly part of that project, simply because the issue came up repeatedly.
+6 votes


Find/ categories. Category search.

That's how I often do it. Note the spots talking about Acadians. Those are the ones that moved from Maine and the Maritimes to go to Louisiana. 

I hope this helps you find what you are looking for.

by Steven Tibbetts G2G6 Pilot (340k points)
Hi Steven, that''s how I finally found it, there should be something in the top category page for Louisiana that links to the ''Region'' in the main category page so people can find it easily.  The search function is slightly annoying since it is Googlesearch and gives irrelevant results also.

The people I was dealing with were not Acadians but moved to Louisiana in 1700.

So basically you need a category created here. There will also need to be one made for "Emigrated from" to match it.


(you also might want to add the tag "Migration")
lol, since it was actually all part of New France and they moved from one part to another, wouldn't think emigrated from would apply.  They are already tagged as having emigrated from France to New France since they came to Canada first.

What I am actually looking for is a link between https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Regions down into the North America one and so on down, right now there is no such link for Louisiana.
North America/ United States of America/ Louisiana
Ah, but I believe Danielle means the "old" Louisiana, which was before the USA existed and much larger than the current state of Louisiana. so this Louisiana could be placed under US History but not under United States of America.
indeed, one of the children married in Mobile, which is now part of Alabama if I am not mistaken, but Alabama didn't exist back then, it was part of the French colony.

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