One more time: What is Radegonde Lambert's real origin?

+6 votes
2.1k views

There is clearly a need to achieve a more satisfactory level of consensus concerning ethnicity issues related to Ragegonde Lambert / Lambert-395.

Refer in this regard  to the following:

1. Firstly to following three previous G2G questions:

2. Secondly to michaelmarcotte.com website page at Métis /Native American Ancestry Sources - Radegonde Lambert.

3. Thirdly to newfrancemetis.blogspot.com's discussion at Genealogist, Stephen A. White Wrong on Radegonde Lambert's Origin.

4. Fourthly to following comments from Ragegonde Lambert / Lambert-395 profile related to earlier version of the image download entitled Radegonde Lambert according to Lanctot

On 14 Jun 2018 You wrote:

In this context, there is no such a thing as more accurate:

  • Family Tree DNA results are either right or wrong
  • There are zero iinstences of X2b4 in the Bluejacket document,

See also

This image detail comment thread in not the right vehicle to discuss this further. Separate G2G question should be created.

On 13 Jun 2018 Bud St Amand wrote:

These are more accurate results

http://shawnee-bluejacket.com/uploads/3/4/8/4/34847868/native_american_bluejacker_dna.pdf

On 13 Jun 2018 You wrote:

See X2b4 mtDNA - mtDNA Test Results for Members.

On 12 Jun 2018 Bud St Amand wrote:

People with the T226C mutation match the Anzick sample, therefore they are NOT European.

[On 8 Jun 2018 You wrote:

According to Roberta Estes:

Haplogroup, Created Yrs Ago, Stat. Variance

X, 31,718.5, 11,709.2

X2, 19,233.8, 2,640.9

X2b 9,675.9, 2,466.0

X2b4 5,589.2, 2,597.2

So haplogroup X2b-T226C created about 10,000 yrs ago is beside the point because Radegonde is haplogroup X2b4 created about 5,500 yrs ago.

On 4 Jun 2018 Bud St Amand wrote:

In view of the fact that the X2b-T226C haplotype has been long confirmed as Native American. This version is undoubtedly the correct version of Radegonde's origin. The fact that she is a match to the Anzick sample cannot possibly have any other explanation.

On 2 Jun 2018 You wrote:

According to discussion comment posted on March 30, 2018 by Jon in response to Roberta Estes's September 14, 2016 article Haplogroup X2b4 is European, Not Native American (see bibliography):

"The idea that Radegonde Lambert was Native American/Metis has, thus, only been around for 20 years. Unfortunately, the advent of the Internet has allowed this false information about her to spread. Father Lanctot’s book is chock-full of serious errors and is best avoided by people seriously working on their family tree."

On 17 Apr 2018 Bud St Amand wrote:

This is the true and correct ancestry of Radegonde Lambert

Acadian Families, Volume 1, by Leopold Lanctot; 1994 pg 61

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/66789817#view-photo=135688036

 

WikiTree profile: Radegonde Lambert
in Genealogy Help by Anonymous Lambert G2G6 Mach 1 (10.9k points)
retagged by Anonymous Lambert

2 Answers

–4 votes
The correct Bluejacket link is here http://shawnee-bluejacket.com/uploads/3/5/4/9/3549915/pekowibluejacler_haplogroup_catalog_2.pdf

These are the true and correct (unaltered) findings and 18 members of the Bluejacket tribe have the T226C mutation. You will also note that X2b7-T226C is also noted as Native American so that means that Barbe Bajolet, who was born in France in 1608 had a Native American mother. It does not mean that T226C is French! In addition to the Acadian settlers who were returned to France when the trade monopoly was lost in 1607, there were also Irish, Basque and French fishermen who fished, traded and interacted with the natives of this country since the early 1500's. T226C is uniquely Native American! Thus, the Lanctot version is the only one that has any credibility.

Let's stop this BS please...we all know that the majority of the Acadians of that era were in fact mixed with the Native American populations of that area.

Radegonde Lambert was without a doubt of Native American ancestry and her profile should be edited to reflect that fact, she should also be reconnected to her parents as stated in Lanctot's book.
by Anonymous St Amand G2G1 (1.6k points)
reshown by Isabelle Martin

Although this haplotype is listed here as part of the Native Haplotype Catalog, it has been pointed out to me that this is an error in spite of Estes statement:

"Haplogroup X2b-T226C so far is limited to the Clovis (Anzick) specimen." I firmly believe that what Estes originally said is correct. Also notice that the above statement in bold remained unchanged from September 2014 until early 2018, though she was unaware of T226C being found in a European specimen. There have also been several of her findings that have been edited seemingly without her knowledge. She has also stated that "Some individuals are unhappy that some haplogroups were among the Anzick results and that I have not removed them at their request." 

 Individuals with X2b-T226C have been found to have Native admixture when compared to the Anzick sample, that's whether or not it had also been a known European haplotype.

When you look at the whole big picture...it's all about manipulation. If you have your autosomal results raw file and want to confirm whether or not you have Native American ancestry, download the following calculator and compare it to the Anzick specimen which is 100% pure Native American with 0% European admixture. This is the same version of the Anzick specimen that was used when Estes conducted her study.

 https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B_DZ5yg3R2FGWHhPdFpNVW9SYkk

My results were 8.83% that's sufficient admixture to be regarded as Anzick boy's 3rd cousin, so one would come to the conclusion that I am in fact Native American whether Stephen White agrees or not. It would be interesting to see if other descendants of Radegonde have similar results.
I haven't used that specific calculator, but based on the FamilyTreeDNA MyOrigins feature and a couple of the similar tools on GEDmatch I don't have any indigenous North American DNA. And I'm also a descendant of Radegonde Lambert. Of course that wouldn't prove anything one way or the other since she's too far back for autosomal DNA to be particularly useful.
Yes well if you use the calculator, you may find you have different results...I certainly did! If Radegonde's descendants were of Native American origin it will still show in their DNA.

They are not currently using the same kit as the one that was originally used in this study. The one that is loaded in the calculator is the original untampered with sample.
+7 votes
Edit: after arguing for a long time (read below), I'm completely convinced that the genetic arguments for Radegonde being Native are spurious, resulting from basic misunderstandings of statistics and population genetics of a single informal (but basically sound) study. Moreover, the person who actually did the study has explicitly said that she does not agree with any interpretation of those results that suggest Radegonde Lambert had a Native American mitochondrial haplotype.

And, not to be a jerk about it, but I got a PhD in genetics 10 years ago, and I've worked in population genetics labs for the last 16 years or so.
----
Original post (before the long comment thread below):
As far as I can tell, reading through all this, "Anzick’s mitochondrial results are D4h3a" (Roberta Estes says). It takes about five seconds to realise that the Anzick mitochondrial results in the Bluejacket document are reported confusingly, because there are almost 100 mitochondrial haplotypes assigned to the Clovis "Anzick" specimen in the BlueJacket document. But any actual person can only have had a single mitochondrial haplotype. X2b-T226C is a European haplotype.

It's a bit confusing, but I think it explains well, here,

https://dna-explained.com/2014/09/24/new-mitochondrial-dna-haplogroups-extrapolated-from-anzick-match-results/

that they were using the Anzick autosomal results to infer possible Native American mitochondrial haplotypes, but that not all the inferred haplotypes are expected to stand up to scrutiny.

So there's no evidence Radegonde Lambert had any Native ancestry.
by Brad Foley G2G6 Mach 4 (48.0k points)
edited by Brad Foley
Most prominent researchers seem to feel like Lanctot is "filled with errors, presented as documented facts".

https://www.acadian.org/history/acadian-myths-2/

If he was "privy to some information," it still needs to be shared and verified.

I don't think we need to say he was consciously lying to say he was wrong. Just that he was not a careful researcher. Even the best of us can make mistakes, and whacky claims, unsupported by the facts.

By Membertou's Beard, we should all be on our guard when people make strong statements based on faulty reasoning and uncertain data...

The language used in your last comment Bud betrays a tendency for conspiracy theories. 

Stephen White's reputation is beyond reproach. Evaluating the merits of White versus Lanctot requires facts, not vague opinions.

According  in the Honour Code, there is no room in such discussions for saying 'As much as I despise what the Catholic church did to the natives . . .'.  What is needed is facts, not political views, which views should be keeping to yourself.

Saying 'What possible reason would he have to make up fairy tales?' is a unsubstantiated subjective opinion, which has nothing to do with attempting to reach consensus.

As Brad Foley suggests, you need to be ruthlessly rigorous and objective in put forth your arguments..

It is a fact that there is no evidence that Radegonde was born in France, just hearsay, there is also no passenger list with her name on it. Her birth date is consistent with some of the census information. Lanctot's version is consistent with some of the census information also and is consistent with Bona Arsenault's version. Stephen White is known to omit most native ancestors from all of his publications because he was "asked to do so" that from his sidekick Lucy whose credibility is also in question. The latter has contacted individuals to tell them their DNA results are wrong because they don't coincide with White's version and refuses to post them on her site.

Radegonde was previously listed as Metis and was removed from the list due solely to her descendants DNA tests.   http://michaelmarcotte.com/metissources.htm. (source) DNA is inconclusive evidence and should not be the sole reason to detemine one's ethnicity unless it is an accepted Native haplogroup. There are otherwise too many variables that can change results.

She was on the list of 115 Metis women of Acadia that was researched by Alexander Alemann, expert genealogist and former director of the Drouin institute. It was found at all the Metis resource centers until the above occurred. I have a photo of the first 22 of those listed and Radegonde is #16. I will upload the photo if you wish. Alemann also states the women on the list were living in 1691. So her death date should reflect that or the before 1693 census that most people have used.

Contrary to what was written that no one ever thought she was Metis until Lanctot published his book, her name was on that list because she had children who fought in the Metis resistance according to Alemann. Oral history also supports native heritage and is consistent with her descendants appearances.

White's deposition interpretation is in error. There is no need to imagine that the depositions were really about completely different people and that the people who were making the depositions about their own ancestors were mistaken. They were correct in their ancestors' names. There was a Guillaume Blanchard born in France around 1590 who came to Acadia with his wife Hughette Poirier born in Vienne, Departement de l'Isère, Rhône-Alpes, France in 1593. They were the parents of Jean Blanchard and were the people named in the deposition.

Also Jean's parents arrived in Port Royal without Jean, so he was not born in France either. Source: CHIASSON, FATHER ANSELME. History and Acadian Traditions of Cheticamp. Translated from the third edition by Jean Doris Le Blanc. St. John's, Newfoundland: Breakwater Books, 1985, pp. 26-29, 283-286. That is also consistent with the DNA results Lucy refuses to post. Where there be native haplotypes, there be natives. DNA over rules hearsay when it comes to native haplotypes.
As for Alemann (taken from the link you shared above): "NOTE: That list has since been discredited through mtDNA testing. Several of the women on Aleman’s list have now been proven by mtDNA as having European rather than Amerindian maternal origins."

Unless you have more proof than "an expert" who has been discredited by DNA evidence, I think we should be cautious. I can't think that a descendant's "appearance" is incontrovertible proof, either.

In my own family, everyone was certain my grandmother's grandmother was native, based on descendants' appearance, and family tradition. Turns out, genetic tests show pretty conclusively she was not even a little bit Native. Maybe, at some point (I doubt it) we'll have better tests that prove this wrong. But I'd be dumb to insist on it, in the face of massive evidence to the contrary.

What evidence does Anselme Chiasson offer? A book is only as good as its sources.

I stand by my statement that X2b-T226C was a native haplotype is because it was listed in the Blujacket Native Haplotype Catalog, because of Estes' results and because individuals with that haplotype match the Anzick sample. Anzick boy had 0% European DNA. If they match, they are therefore not European! 

We know that a different version of the Anzick boy's DNA is now used. If you want the correct results, download the ancient DNA calculator here  https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B_DZ5yg3R2FGWHhPdFpNVW9SYkk and enter your autosomal raw file.

The genealogist who should be discredited is not Alemann!

DNA evidence, absolutely, might sometimes be inconclusive. And the points you've just brought up might be totally valid. When it comes to adjudicating between Stephen White, and Chiasson, I'll be the first to admit I've moved out of my field of expertise, and can't do much more than listen. But, I'm curious, what he's offering as evidence?

Just going by what little I know, people seem to assume White is pretty much the authority (but, again, authorities can be wrong, especially when new evidence can come to light).

The Chiasson info  as far as I know is passenger lists. I did not read the book, but got the citation from ancestry with the following info: 

Name: Blanchard
Arrival Place: Nova Scotia, Canada
Primary Immigrant: Blanchard, Mr
Family Members: Wife
White said it was Radegonde and Jean who came from France based on the fact that he decided his nephews deposition that it was Guillaume Blanchard and Huguette Poirier who came from France was a mistake.
The issue looks to be covered already, in detail, in Lambert's biography. In fact, the biography looks like a model of genealogical clarity and scholarship.

Claude, you've done an amazing job.

Michael Marcotte and I have been in contact by e-mail. Your interpretation of  what Michael, whose heritage include Cherokee ancestors, says in http://michaelmarcotte.com/metissources.htm is misleading. Michael used to believe that Ragegonde Lambert was indigenous or Métis. However, based on DNA test results, Michael no longer includes Radegonde Lambert in his listing of Méltis ancestors in his superlative family tree website. Michael is admitedly suspicious of these DNA test results but he awaits further research findings before restoring Radegonde Lambert to his list of Métis ancestors. In the meantime, Michael assumes Radegonde Lambert to be of unknown heritage. It is not clear to me when Michael reached these conclusions.

June 27 edit: http://michaelmarcotte.com/metissources.htm was actually last updated in March, 2015.

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