LNAB for Chas. Edw. Louis Casimir Stuart?

Question

I tried to type in “fakery” in the surname/project tag, but no suggestions came up! 

So, there’s Charles Edward Louis Casimir Stuart, whose true name at birth was Charles Manning Allen. And there’s his equally Allen brother. Both heirs to the throne of Britain.

Since all of this is shady (see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobieski_Stuarts, among other publications) should this profile be corrected? Or am I reaching here? I hate to sound so sarcastic, but the kind of scams these two brothers pulled off in the 1800s... grrr.

Oh the other hand, if that is what these brothers called themselves and what others called them, doesn’t that confirm the profile as is?

Comments

how can I get a clipborad up to paste to ? something already typed out , so i dont have to re do it !?

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It sounds like you have to either use the old fashioned method of Ctrl + V to paste something or a right mouse click should give you the option to paste.  However if you are doing this on a tablet or mobile phone it can be more complicated and it appears as if it is problematic for Android.

There are various comments/problems identified on this G2G post  https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/630628/did-you-notice-the-g2g-changes

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I'd like this Profile and profiles linked to it,

left here as I am researching this and other "Hearsay" Lines , I run a group for Royal Stewart and Stewart Autosomal DNA on facebook ( ONLY apply to join if and ONLY if you have Royal Stewart DIRECT) https://www.facebook.com/groups/RoyalStewartandStuartAutosomalDNA/about/

ironically a number of us DNA match  numerous kits that are claiming descent.

 look at Charles II , Bonnie Prince Charles great uncle, how many illegitimate children did he have ?? 14 KNOWN of !,

of course after Culloden, people running away into exile , incl Charles, and a vested interest in NOT DECLARING illegitimate children.

 I think it pertinent to leave this info in just in case it is true (albeit with silly mistakes Allen bros made) there seams to be dna matchings

no harm is done leaving something there

on my ancestry tree hit link below and go down the lines from Chalres and you will see I generally say "Hearsay" for purposes of research on profiles of claims

the group I run has 600 members a number of us claim decent from Charles https://www.facebook.com/groups/RoyalStewartandStuartAutosomalDNA/about/

 I match a number of High Stewart S781+ and -s,   and Corsica Stuart (one does not match multiple of these unless from direct Royal Stuart lines (of which I am) many in the group that show their direct royal Stewart lines I have strong DNA matches with them (more than most / all others in group)

 I also adna match Sobieskis, Walkinshaws, Hanovers , Wales gedmatch kits and ancestry.com and FTDNA oh and Romanov/a

https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/person/tree/42125756/person/28667787808/facts

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thanks John Atkinson
amazing , that Ctrv +c worked ! , I'm sure a box use to come up in the past, did that get removed?  I just have to remember it !

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Thank you Jackie for your explanation, however I personally don't think we should be leaving 'hearsay' lines stay as they are, when part of the WikiTree Honor Code is about Accuracy.  Leaving profiles as they are, when they appear to contain mistakes is both concerning to a number of people on WikiTree and depicts a poor element of scholarship to outsiders.

To me discussion of 'hearsay' lines belongs in a free-space profile, and I have been thinking that a free-space profile looking at the claims of the Allen/Stuart brothers is a good idea.

I also think you are doing a dis-service to Anthony Camp, he is writing recently and I can't imagine that he was ever a Hanoverian official genealogist and I definitely can't see anything like that in his biography.  Even if he did have that role in some capacity, the profile on the Sobieski Stuarts is exceptionally well-researched and documented with many primary sources.  It certainly shouldn't be dismissed so readily.

As I have said, in a post elsewhere I have been researching the Stuart profiles and also the Claret family which I also know you have an interest and as a co-leader of the European Aristocrats project to which these profiles at least tangentially belong I will start to add some sourced information.

This will happen slowly as I have many other 'fingers in the WikiTree pie' and by all means add your own research, but as I said earlier 'accuracy' (and sources) are the key to any profile on WikiTree.

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I have removed part of that comment John A , as I cannot say so other than I was told that> yes if only I had more time
 I add the info to my ancestry tree , but dont get around to adding it here!

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remember  Dorothy they call the Courtesan and mistress of King William IV they had 10 illegitimate children all named FitzClarence (her profile should be linked to William IV)

BUT IRONICALLY she is ALSO the GREAT GRANDMOTHER OF

Allan Sobieski Stuart the son of Lady Alice Mary Emily Hay 1835–1881 BIRTH 7 JUL 1835 • Richmond, Surrey, England DEATH 7 JUN 1881 • Jersey, Channel Is.

and

Sir Charles Edward Louis Casimir Allen Stuart Count d' Albanie 1824–1882 BIRTH 24 DEC 1824 • Logie Aslie, Scotland DEATH 8 MAY 1882 • Jersey

WHO IS the son to the ALLEN BROTHERS of Notorious fame

John Carter Hay Allen AKA John Sobieski Stolberg Stuart

1795–1872 1st cousin 5x removed

and Charles Gardner Manning Allan ALLEN 

SO John Sobieski Stolberg Stuart 1795–1872 of the "Dodgy Stuart" as some put it

is ALSO IRONICALLY the Great Grandson of

William Henry Hanover IV, Saxe Coburg Gotha King of England 1765–1837

BIRTH 21 AUG 1765 • Buckingham House, London, , England

DEATH 20 JUN 1837 • Windsor Castle, Windsor, Berkshire, England. !!!

a fairly well connected lot of ancestors wouldn't one think?? correct me if I'm wrong 

Dorothea "Dorothy" Jordan formerly Bland

Born 21 Nov 1761 in Waterford, Irelandmap

Daughter of Francis Bland and Grace Phillips

[sibling(s) unknown]

DESCENDANTS descendants

Mother of Lucy Hester Rachel (Ford) Hawker, George Augustus Frederick FitzClarence, Henry Edward FitzClarence, Sophia (FitzClarence) Sidney, Mary (FitzClarence) Fox, Frederick FitzClarence, Elizabeth (FitzClarence) Hay, Adolphus FitzClarence, Augusta (FitzClarence) Kennedy-Erskine Gordon-Hallyburton, Augustus FitzClarence and Amelia (FitzClarence) Cary

Died 5 Jul 1816 in Paris, Francemap

Profile manager: Niels Hansen Find Relationship private message [send private message]

Bland-606 created 16 May 2014 | Last modified 7 May 2015

http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/people/people_report_view.asp?REF_ID=NM076807

Biography

Dorothea Jordan (22 November 1761 – 5 July 1816) was an Anglo-Irish actress, courtesan, and the mistress and companion of the future King William IV of the United Kingdom, for 20 years while he was Duke of Clarence. Together they had ten illegitimate children, all of whom took the surname FitzClarence.

Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_Jordan

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Jackie, you’ve certainly put a lot of work into your research! And I certainly don’t want what I say below to disparage the work others, including your work.

However.... (always a ‘however,’ right?)... I don’t think the sources stand up. I read the article John Atkinson referenced with the link in a previous answer above, and it only confirmed to me that, disowned or never mentioned illegitimates notwithstanding, the Sobieski Stuarts pulled off one of the greatest hoaxes in history. The documentary evidence weighs too heavily against the brothers, and this includes the lack of documentary evidence that supported their claims. 

I believe that John Atkinson said it best: “I personally don’t think we should be leaving ‘hearsay’  lines as they are, when part of the WikiTree Code of Honor is about accuracy. Leaving profiles as they are, when they appear to contain mistakes are concerning to a number of people on WikiTree and depicts a poor element to outsiders.” And I agree wholeheartedly. 

The accuracy of relationships on WikiTree was one of the things that drew me here, even if some of the details might be wrong. Another thing that drew me was that folks here were willing to do the hard work of proving thing to be so. I have found that me wanting something to be so in the face of evidence against it just doesn’t work here. We frequently discuss sources here on G2G that appear suspicious, especially so when some of those sources appear to have made false connections in order to tie one family to another. 

This is a regular occurrence for people who just have to have that royal connection. I’ve got that connection, as far as I can trust the research, but it sure impresses me a lot less now than it would have during my research in my teens and twenties. WikiTree gets it right when we say we are building One Tree, not just a list of those who descend from royalty and nobility. If that kind of listing happened, then we would just become a club of snobs.

Royal or not, we all relate to each other somehow, and that is the connections we are trying to build here. 

I believe that something must be done with the Sobieski Stuart profiles as they make WikiTree appear to be false when WikiTree claims to require the best sources for the relationships and biographies presented here. Hearsay is dubious in court; it should be here, too.

Jackie, I earnestly pray that I have not offended you or anyone else with my opinions.

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Hi Jackie, you do have the descendants of William IV and Dorothea or Dora Bland known on the stage as Mrs Jordan a bit incorrect.  Lady Alice Mary Emily Hay is the grand daughter of this couple, her mother Lady Elizabeth FitzClarence being their illegitimate daughter, that's definite

Lady Alice Hay married Charles Edward or Edouard (not sure about the Louis Casimir) Stuart, Count d' Albanie, who was the only son of Charles Manning Allen, alias Charles Edward Stuart, and thus the nephew of John Carter Allen or John Sobieski Stolberg Stuart.  So the two Allen/Sobieski Stuart brothers have no direct line to William IV and Mrs Jordan.

Everything I've read indicates that Charles Edward Stuart (the son) and Lady Alice Hay didn't have any children, they were married quite late, I'd have to check again but from memory not until the mid-1870's, so I'm not sure where Allan Sobieski Stuart fits in.  Do you have anymore information about him?

Answer 1

Thanks Pip, I have been doing some investigation of these profiles since I happened to discover them last week.
 

The profile you have linked to was actually the son of Charles Manning Allen and was baptised under the surname of Stuart, (though I'm a bit unsure) but the Last Name at Birth (LNAB) of the father should definitely be Allen.  The Allen brothers went through a variety of names, but they can be added in the Current Last Name and Other Last Name fields and also discussed in the biography.

Also the birth date of the father Charles Manning Allen of 4 Jun 1799  is probably not as written on his gravestone which is what is currently on his WikiTree profile.  At his marriage to Anna Beresford (also not sure her LNAB should be de la Poer Beresford) on 9 Oct 1822 he is described as a minor and both his parents give their consent, which means he has to be born after 9 Oct 1801.  I didn't take a note but I did come across a mention of a poem written by his brother John and dedicated to Charles on his birthday which was sometime in July, which would place his birth in July 1802.

**Although I can find the son under Charles Edward or Edouard, I haven't found anything yet that gives him the additional names of Louis Casimir.

Comments

Thanks for your response, John. I think these guys need heavy duty biographies. All the things you mentioned above that are suspicious about Charles and his brother send off red flags. But, it’s a little above my pay grade, considering sources and all. Still, more info there would keep folks from being led astray. Thanks for checking into it.

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There is a good article on the Sobieski Stuarts by Anthony J. Camp, which corrects many of the pretensions and the mistakes you can find in other online sources.

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That was an excellent article, well researched. Thanks for the link.

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On Anna de la Poer Beresford, her LNAB was Beresford, it needs to be fixed.

Background: her ancestor Catherine Power was the only da. and heiress to James Power, 3rd Earl of Tyrone and 8th Baron Power. Both titles were by letters patent incl. Baron Power [I 1535], but somehow she convinced the Irish House of Lords her ancestor also held the Barony of "de la Poer" (which is ungramattical) by writ (the only one in the Irish peerage), and she was confirmed by the House of Lords as Baroness de la Poer despite the fact she wasn't the heir to this particular title. Her husband Marcus was created Earl of Tyrone and their son and heir George Beresford was created Marquess of Waterford. His descendants stated using "de la Poer" as a shared "middle name" or something (I wish I could find a source that explains more about why they did this...).

Anna Beresford was the da. of John Beresford (FYI did not have the middle name de la Poer), a younger son of Marcus Beresford and Catherine Power. Her generation in particular sprinkles in 'de la Poer' periodically for no good reason. I'll poke around and see if I can update this particular branch of the tree.

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I don't think the dates work, plus according to Debrett the Anna Maria Beresford d. an infant 11 Oct 1779.  The Complete Peerage has a pedigree on p. 84 and specifies her name was just Anna (not Anna Maria) and father was Rt. Hon. John de la Poer Beresford (there's that middle name agan...). Not hopeful we'll find her correct father but her LNAB was Beresford!.

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A possible choice is the son of George de la Poer Beresford, 2nd Marquess of Waterford, Lord John George de la Poer Beresford (1773-1862) archbishop of Armagh, who was appointed to the Privy Council of Ireland 23 May 1820. He never married but a natural da. is prob. a good match for this group of fraudsters. And I bet a Sobieski Stuart researcher figured this out...I'll keep looking.

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Excellent work, Kirk! Keep at it. (Love the last two lines above.)

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Hi Kirk

The Peerage of the British Empire as at present existing, 6th ed. 1837. edited by Edmund Lodge, lists 21 children of John Beresford on p. 494 (another 3 with his second wife after the list on John's profile) and Anna is number 18, born 1787 but it only has her first husband, Charles Gardiner, Esq.

Lodge is generally a reasonable source, though I did come across something that indicated he actually only edited 2 of the volumes.

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I was thinking that de la Poer Beresford, might have been the surname of the line of the Marquess of Waterford, but The Complete Peerage, vol. 12B, indicates they used the surname Beresford, and as you state Kirk, De La Poer was always a middle name.

The mother of John Beresford and his elder brother, George de la Poer Beresford was apparently Katherine, suo jure, Baroness La Poer or Poer in the Irish peerage but there is a note that the whole Barony was probably fictitious.

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I guess she gets her parents back! Also, these seem like such nice people - here's her suit against her brother to get her marriage portions from her brother Henry B. Beresford.

If you look at other contemporary sources they include "de la Poer" in the style for surnames vs the forename, One style is de-la-Poer-Beresford. It's odd - it's almost like they are saying "not just Beresford, but you know, the 'de la Poer Beresfords'".

Another family that does this is the Roche (Barons Fermoy), you see a lot of "Burke Roche" in sources but their surname was Roche (I spent a long time fixing them...)

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It has a lot of problems (writ didn't existing the Irish Peerage, the feminine spelling, there was a different heir). Probably cost a pretty penny to purchase is my guess.

Another little wrinkle is that a lot of sources on Charles Allen (Stuart) (d. 1880) say his widow survived him, but most sources have the 1862 death date.