Would this work as a plan for using Y haplogroups on WikiTree?

Question

With regard to earlier discussions of using Y haplogroups in WikiTree: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/192486/what-think-this-rough-plan-storing-using-haplogroups-wikitree

Is it possible for WikiTree to automatically link to a Y subhaplogroup if it is already at YFull.com?  For example, a Y-DNA tester enters (on their DNA Tests page) that their Y haplogroup is R-M269.  Clicking on R-M269 takes them to

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

There they can see where their SNP / haplogroup belongs in the hierarchy of the Y haplogroup tree.

Thanks and sincerely,

Comments

Other examples are

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z59/

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Well it does not work perfectly )-:  J-M172 did not work.  M172 is one of the SNPs which defines J2.  It is found here https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/ (if you click on the “+28 SNPs” link).  But simply linking to https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M172/ won’t do.

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Having completed the Y-500, I entered my latest (R-BY13132) and it works just fine. It is easy to see and navigate all levels of the tree... the most useful system I've seen. (Not to say that I've spent a lot of time research alternatives.) I think it has been settled that using WikiTree categorization to accomplish this will not be possible.

I tested the problem with J-M172 to confirm that it doesn't work. I'd guess it is some sort of glitch. The question is, how glitchy is the system overall? Is this a rare anomaly that could be fixed by the techies at YFULL? I hope that more WikiTreers who have Haplogroup confirmation try it out and see how it works.

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When you have multiple SNPs defining a haplogroup, it appears that YFull, FTDNA, and other services, such as ytree.net, might select a different lead SNP for the group.

So FTDNA and YTree have my terminal SNP as FGC39762 but YFull has it as FGC39763.

Perhaps a field where people specifically enter their YFull haplogroup?

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Hm. Interesting. In keeping with Davis's comment, YFull doesn't seem to like my branch particular of the phylotree...which I suppose simply means that none of the 15 of us who've taken the Big Y have submitted BAMs to YFull. I'm just guessin'. YFull finds BY3332 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY3332/) but seemingly nothing below it. And we are (lemme count) 45 SNPs below that at YTree (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1058).

Peter's idea may be the best possible given the rapidly changing state of yDNA haplogroups; but of most value, really, is that deep dive into the subclades where the novel SNPs/INDELs live. Still, it would be valuable to frame SNPs in a better way than we currently do. Being able to quickly see that a profile is S764, for example, and that that means he also tested positive for L21 and L51--without having to go searching the various datasets--would be a big deal.

 

Don't know what to do about the automatic linking aspect, though. Assuming no glitches, it should work fine for upper-level subclades, but if I enter BY35088--or even BY22194--onto my profile, I assume it would just black-hole at YFull...at least for now. If I took the time in advance to search YFull and know to show BY3332 instead, it should work fine. And, importantly, help everyone with a visual of the (mostly) hierarchical nature of the haplogroups.

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I have been slowly coming to the point of view that Y subclades are the best way to document patrilines in public genealogy databases. It's unusual that two people with the same surname are going to end up in the same deep subclade by accident, but it's general enough that it's not pushing too far into privacy issues. And of course, it's succinct.

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"I tested the problem with J-M172 to confirm that it doesn't work. I'd guess it is some sort of glitch."

Odd, huh, Douglas? Doing a search on M172 at YFull returns only the text "− M172 • PAGE28 • PF4908 • PAGES00028" and a link to the high-level J2 page: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/. The text "M172" doesn't appear on that page. Hitting https://www.yfull.com/tree/M172/ doesn't result in an error; it just loads the root "Adam" level tree.

Since M172/PF4908 defines that high-level J2 clade, I thought I'd see what happened if I tried searching YFull for other first-branch SNPs. M253 (I1) same thing: result is a link to the I1 clade page only, https://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/. The text "M253" doesn't appear on the page, and the direct URL, https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M253, loads the root tree. P147 for E1, however, is a hit: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-P147/.

M269 is actually several levels down the R1b tree, so I thought I'd try stepping down that clade. R1 with M173: no go; at YFull: the link returned by searching is to R1 at https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/, "M173" doesn't appear on the page, and trying M173 as part of the direct URL loads the root tree only. M343 for R1b is also nada, yielding the same results: no URL to M343. L278 for R1b1: a hit! https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L278/ works!

So it appears YFull expects you to already know the high-level clade demarcations...at least depending upon the size of the haplogroup in question. There's clearly a method at work here, but direct linking seems to be dependent upon the SNP returned by the testing company, and the display rendering established at YFull.

I haven't checked this, but I know Yseq returns some SNPs with taxonomic naming conventions different than FTDNA. I don't know these might line-up with YFull.

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I tried my own SNP's and found the same.  SNP's designated as the leader by FTDNA but not YFull do not work.  In my case, YFull calls a level Z19 that FTDNA calls Z18 (names a SNP pack after it).  I was able to use the last SNP that YFull recognizes of my list, R-L257, and even the new one they (hopefully) are working on, R-L257*.  (The asterisk works!)  It points to my kit, all by itself.  It does provide a very nice 'haplotrail' at the top of the page (YFull based, which is also what Living DNA appears to use).

Concerning 'haplotrails', someone coined the word and I like it, for the list of SNP's leading to your 'terminal SNP'.  See these comments.

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Davis asked “Perhaps a field where people specifically enter their YFull [sub]haplogroup?“

Might there be an easy way to have Y-DNA testers take their Y-DNA subhaplogroup as reported by their testing lab and convert it to their YFull subhaplogroup?

If so, then WikiTree could automatically link from their subhaplogroup to what is at YFull.

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My original question was “Is it possible for WikiTree to automatically link to a Y subhaplogroup if it is already at YFull.com?“ If the subhaplogroup is not already at YFull then could WikiTree report that fact (upon submission) and provide instructions on ways to determine the next closest subhaplogroup (which is in YFull) to be entered?

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I like the idea (but then I like most of your ideas!).

However, it has clear limitations.  For one thing, it's going to create a lot of questions, like "what does that mean", "how do I do that", and "YFull doesn't have mine, what do I do".

For high level haplogroups, such as from 23&Me, Living DNA, and any of the FTDNA STR tests, it should be straightforward, should not be much disagreement in YFull.  But for those who have tested further, there's a high likelihood of disagreement between YFull and FTDNA and others.  My own goes 2 branches further than YFull, so I would have to limit this field to a higher level SNP than what I would prefer to use.  And from what I've seen, YFull is having trouble keeping up with FTDNA, so there are likely to be many with higher level YFull SNP's than on FTDNA.

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good grief! I couldn't even find mine, sorry but it's a bit overwhelming. My solution is to simply do screens shots of my y tested surnames that are identified in groups at familytreedna.com. These are "public" results and as such serve to substantiate the DNA participants who do match. Simple.

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Hello Sherry, If one of your Y tested surnames is (for example Smith) and his haplogroup is R-M269 and you know of another Smith whose haplogroup is R-M269 then you still don't know for sure they share a direct paternal line ancestor in a genealogical time frame whose surname was Smith. That is because the time back to the most recent direct paternal line ancestor for everyone who is R-M269 is about 6,400 years. The Smith surname is not that old.  About 110 million European men belong to haplogroup R-M269.

Are you taking screen shots of y tested surnames with their associated haplotypes or haplogroups (or something else)?

Most sincerely,

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I don't have my Smith lines up, but you are welcome to see my Mitchell, Martin, and Johnson lines as I have tested and posted screen shots. Just follow those primary lines, and I have attached screen shots to all male descendants I think,,, let me know if I missed one!

Mitchell-17863

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specific groups as are proved matching Peter.

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Plus, I am ~almost ~ ready~ to continue to post to my double Mitchell line, which will tie together the infamous Captain William Mitchell who is thoroughly written up in Maryland archives and his brother Thomas. This proof will rest on a bit of paper and a LOT of DNA evidence!

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Hello Sherrie,

I like what you have done given that we no longer have YSearch and most of these anonymous Y-DNA testers are not in WikiTree.  Your work is important because it is the matching Y haplotypes of direct paternal line descendants that need to be used to "confirm" father/son relationships in direct paternal lines. That is more important and useful than Y haplogroups.

However the original question is of lesser genealogical value and has to do with how to make better use of Y haplogroups in WikiTree.

Most sincerely,

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Haplotype matching does not work except as a 'predictor' of the terminal SNP and haplotree branch. STRs do not work as well as SNPs when considering true relatedness.

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Hello Leake,

You said “Haplotype matching does not work except as a “predictor” of the the terminal SNP and haplotree branch”.  Please confirm you intended to write haplotype and not haplogroup.

Thanks and sincerely, Peter

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Yep, that's exactly what I meant.

Answer 1

I like this idea.  Over time it could also be a learning feature for folks to see how the SNP world works and possibly create interest in finding their own haplogroup at a future date.

Since FTDNA and Yfull commonly use different designations for the same location, some method for showing both vendor's "equivalent SNP designation" would be necessary.

A case in point for this is that my 4th cousin's and my newly developed BigY tests and Yfull's analysis thereof use different haplogroup calls; however, deeper review shows that both vendors show the equivalent name for the other vendor's designation.

Thanks for the suggestion Peter.