post-1535 names for Welsh profiles

+9 votes

The Name Fields Welsh Aristocracy page indicates that the pre-1535, the gender designation should be part of the LNAB field.

What about post-1535 and non-aristocrats?

While working with profiles managed by the Quakers Project, this subject came up. there is a merge proposal for Jane Owen, daughter of Owen ap Evan. Most of Jane's siblings have the gender as part of the LNAB but Jane does not. Is consistency sought where none should be expected? If consistency is appropriate, which profiles need to be adjusted?


WikiTree profile: Jane Owen
in Policy and Style by Debi Hoag G2G6 Pilot (409k points)

I went with just Owen because that was prevalent in the sources I saw for her. The sources were less united about her father. It's likely his LNAB might be appropriately the patronymic, even though England had told the Welsh they had to adopt surnames before he was born, but I think the children could go either way, barring primary sources that say one way or another. If you'd rather go with ferch Owen for Jane so she matches her siblings, that's ok with me, but I don't really have a strong opinion either way. (I was working John Bevan's profile for the Magna Carta Project & wound up developing the profile for Hugh Roberts based on some of the sources that I was finding, which led to all the duplicates for Hugh, who all had duplicates for his wife.)

Cheers, Liz

Thanks, Liz. I'm inclined to go with just Owen also, based both on the source and on the 1535 cut off date established in the Welsh Naming Standards. That begs the point as to whether LNAB changes should be suggested for her siblings, though, so figured it needed to come to G2G.

If we don't have any dissent within a couple of days, I'll move the matches back live and approve for the Quakers Project.
I went with Owen as the surname without the gender identifier. Two merges were proposed with one completed so far. I have added a research note regarding the use of patronymics among the Welsh. This thread can be closed as complete once anyone involved has had a chance to reply if they choose to.

1 Answer

+9 votes
Since Welsh names were in a time of transition at this point, I'd recommend use of a ===Name=== section in the biography where Jane's name can be discussed and clarified.

Because the Welsh culture was essentially being suppressed by the English, you can expect that for several generations, the Welsh culture would continue "underground".  

What was her last name at birth? If you can find a baptismal record in the local church, it may well have been in Latin and said something like (Latin form of Jane), daughter of (Latin names of parents) was baptized on such and such a date.  That basically doesn't help you!

What was she referred to in her community?  Probably, Jane, Owen's daughter.  (And did they use the English spelling Owen or the Welsh Owain?  And of course if the sources are writing in English they'd tend to use the English form.  Even if they were using the patronymics, they'd be likely to write "verch" rather than "ferch" because it sounded like a v to the English.  

I think the 1535 date was the date of the order by the English, which was then implemented over a couple of generations, during which you'll find uses of both forms.

Again, as you've discussed, what to put in the LNAB field is going to be arbitrary because both were probably in use.  But have a Names section where it can be mentioned!
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (472k points)
The merge has been completed. Would you review the research note I added regarding naming patterns and revise if needed? Thanks.
I just took a detailed look at the profile to do a ===Name=== section, and note that the siblings use the patronymic system, so I'd be inclined to err slightly on the patronymic side.  It does look like another merge is needed now, too.

I took the liberty of (a) putting in subheadings for the rest of the data and (b) pulling in material from her husband's profile, which indicated that she was already married, and came with him to Pennsylvanie with him and with children, all of which is crucial in figuring out what happened in her life!

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