How can I find Y haplotype R-CTS241?

Question

My father is Wallace J Anderson b. 19 Nov1940 in Suffern, Rockland County, NY.  He died in 1986 in Middletown, Orange, NY.   His mother is Beatrice Call 1916-1989 and her prior husband was Edward Anderson who we believe is not the father of Wallace.  Beatrice Call's parents were John Call (1876-1941) and Harriet Amelia Jones (1892-1968) and she was listed as adopted on her marriage certificate.   My paternal half brother did 23&me and his y paternal haplotype is R-CTS241.  UPDATE: He is R-M269 from FTDNA Y111 with surname Maxwell (with no matches close to that)  I have been tracing cousins (matches) with no obvious paternal events. We are on Anc, Heritage, 23 and GED.  Any continued thoughts, ideas, suggestions are helpful!  Thank you!

Comments

Hi Elizabeth!

 That RCST241 is the DNA profle from Niall of the Nine Hostages and at some point the Fletcher male line came from an O Neill male somewhere along the way. That haplogroup goes through Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, England and many males do not have the surname O'Neill from where it comes but other surnames because of birth out of wedlock, adoption, affairs where the child born is given the legal father's last name and not the last name of the father the DNA is from.  My last  name is Clark. My Clarke last name came about in 1863 when my direct paternal 3rd great grandmother Patsey gave birth to my 2nd great grandfather Henry Morris Clarke. His father was a 2nd generation American of Northern Irish descent named Robert A Hawthorne Jr born in 1835 in Fairfield, SC. Robert died in battle during the Civil War June 27, 1862 in the battle of Seven Pines outside Richmond VA and Henry Morris Clarke was born in Roanoke VA Mar 1863. 23 & me gave em the haplogroup and initially told me I descended directly from Niall of the Nine Hostages in March 2019 and later last year updated to say I do not directly descend from Niall of the Nine but his line was created by the same man who created my male line saying I am from the O'Neill clan just not from Niall himself. As to the native American DNA I am in the same boat as you my connection to my full blood Native American line goes back to the 1760's and back so I am not able to access tribal membership either. It is good to note on your tree though!

 James A Clark jr

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Hi Elizabeth!
On my paternal great grandfather James A Clarke's maternal line Phoebe Ann Clarke, we descend from Pochantas' half sister. It goes to Lucinda Diggs her mother to Lucinda's father Lewis Diggs then to his mother Susan Cabell ( all these people were enslaved) Susan's father was a Nicholas Cabell ( a slave owner) His direct maternal line goes back to Pochantas' half sister.

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Thank you all for your info!  My brother tested FTDNA Y111 and came back R-M269. (Is this more specific?) The matches from there came back overwhelmingly with the surname "Maxwell" and they have a site       http://www.maxwell-dna.com/

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Janice FTDNA is a good company. Testing at 111 is a very high level for males and it will get a result to first cousins. every level of markers is tighter circle for example 12 will take you to 1000 ad or CE. 25 markers to the late 1500's, 37 markers which is paternity family line to 1800's etc.67 markers to the 1900's  to 2000's and 111 to first cousins.

 My haplogoup on Family Tree DNA was first at M269 then refined to M312 with 12 marker test.  The 23&Me will give a more defined haplogroup.  Neither is wrong but 23&Me is more defined and they will tell you where the male haplogroup is from and if it is related to an individual who might be a famous person of the haplogoup if there is one attached to it.

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Thank you!

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Totally agree.  Ancestry is full of bogus trees.

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Thank you!  My tree is private because I have theories.  I have tried to removing people and redoing my tree, but the inaccuracies continue.

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CTS 241 means you are a white guy whose relatives came from England or Ireland or Wales or Scotland. That haplo group is at such a high level it is meaningless. It is thousands of years old, way before surnames were used. Millions of people are your theoretical cousins.

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This is completely inaccurate. What Haplogroup R-CTS241 (also known as R1b1a2a1a2c1), means you HAD a direct male ancestor that was "white".  It does not mean someone is "white". The male ancestor with "white" features could have been hundreds of years ago because this haplogroup has spread very far. 

It originated in a male less the 10,000 ( yes 10K) years ago. It is a relatively common haplogroup. Believed to have started with the Celts in Ireland and spread to Scotland, Briton, Wale and farther after 10k years ). It "is also present at lower frequencies throughout Eastern Europe, Western Asia, as well as parts of North Africa and Central Asia. The clade is also present at lower frequencies throughout Eastern Europe, Western Asia, as well as parts of North Africa and Central Asia."

The Line goes about as follows. 

Haplogroup A - 275,000 years ago in Africa

Haplogroup F-M89 - 75,000 years ago in the area of the Red Sea, Saudi Arabia, Southwest Asia

Haplogroup K-M9 - 53,000 years ago. They migrated through the Middle East, but spread to Central Asia, Central Europe, and East Asia. This is a very important haplogroup to the world. over half of the patrilineal lines of the world came from this haplogroup.

Haplogroup R-M207 - 30-35,000 years ago, was from Central Asia.

Haplogroup R-M343 - Spread across all directions from West Asia. Even backtracked in your ancestors' migrations. 

Haplogroup R-M269

 - Comes from the above haplogroup like all the others. However, this one arrived 10,000 years ago. Do some research on this group. It is interesting as this is a group that took many strides, and it caused genetic domination in many areas. 

R-CTS241- Shortly after R-M269, your haplogroup shot out from them. This could have occurred shortly before they migrated to or shortly after they arrived in Ireland. 

The reason I state one can have this haplogroup and not be "white" is simply that there has been a great deal of mixing since the haplogroup's arrival. For example, I have a cousin with this haplogroup. They are only 3% Irish and 19% English. The other 78% of their DNA was a mixture of Nigerian, Congolese, East India/Pakistani, Armenia, Russian, Lebanese, Arabian, Spanish, Portuguese, Southern Italian. I do a great deal of genetic research for my family, and it is a lazy and irresponsible response to assume anyone's race and ethnicity by their haplogroup. 

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That is alot of info!  Thank you for taking the time to explain all of it!  I have not been able to find this info explained in one place and as concisely as you have done.

Answer 1

YFULL shows DF13 • S521 • CTS241

Answer 2

I also come from paternal haplogroup, R-CTS241. I am Female..

Comments

Are you or your haplotype males from Rockland County NY?

Answer 3

Both of you should go on GEDmatch and do Genesis.  https://genesis.gedmatch.com works with 23andMe and other testing companies as well.

Comments

Bother my brother and I are on GEDmatch.  There were no other matches at this point.  Thank you for that!

Answer 4

i JUST FOUND OUT I'M R-CTS241.ON MY PATERNAL SIDE...

Comments

I am adopted and do not know my biological father.  My son is paternal haplogroup R-CTS241.  How can this help me find my biological father?

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Your son’s Y-DNA won’t help you find your father. Your son’s Y-DNA follows his father’s father’s father’s line- not yours.

To find your father’s line through Y-DNA you’d need to have a brother or uncle with the same paternal line test.

You can also just use autosomal dna matches on Ancestry, FamilyTree DNA, 23andme, GedMatch, etc.

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This doesnt make since, the SON is this guys biological son. This guy is adopted, not the son. So shouldnt the son's Ydna be the same as this guy? the guy was adopted so doing guys brother might not work cause unless the guys family adopted him and his own brother...

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It won’t help.

Unless the biological father takes a 23andMe shares his results

We’re one out of 21

Rcts241 is the trunk of a very large tree.

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Take both 23 and Me and Ancestry DNA and look for the closest cousins you can find.   They will lead you to your birth parents.

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Since his sons Halplogoup is R-CTS241 his would be the same also.  So your comment makes no since.

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Hi anonymous.

If you are a woman the answer given to you would be correct. if you are a male then the answer would not be correct that was given on April 27, 2019.  But the cousins who match you with a high level of DNA say first cousins, 2nd cousins, will help you find your birth parents. First cousins means that your father or mother is a brother or sister to that person. The grandparents of that person you match with at 1st cousin will also be your grandparents. That will be an autosomal test at Ancestry.com, 23&Me, Family finder at family Tree DNA.

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CTS 241 is at a very aggregate level. Meaning a million people easily fall under it. It doesn't help, other than say he's likely from a UK line. You need to push the Y DNA down to a low level. That means Family Tree DNA's Big Y test. That will put you in the ballpark for the last couple hundred years and perhaps someone close has also tested which would give you a better chance at discovery.

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I didn't do the Big Y at Family Tree DNA but I did do the Y line testing beginning with 12 markers and then upgraded to 25 then 37 markers in 2008. Ten years later I did get a match from a man in Northern Ireland who did match on all three levels in Nov 2018. He has been the only man to date who did match me looking for his paternal line. I was able to figure out  my paternal line not only by that test but because of another man who matched me on an autosomal level on three platforms. 23andMe, Family Tree DNA and Ancestry.com though 23and Me narrowed down his relationship to me in such a way that I understood this man who was born in 1965 and given up for adoption descended from my direct 2nd paternal line grandparents, confirming we share the exact same 2nd great grandparents, Henry Morris Clarke and Phoebe Ann Clarke. my great direct paternal grandfather James H Clarke, and an older brother and a younger brother. the younger Benjamin Abraham Clarke was this man's great paternal direct grandfather. I did find my 3rd direct great grandfather because of the Northern Irishman's test. Robert A Hawthorne Jr and got autosomal matches one from a descendant of Robert's older brother James Gibson Hawthorne through an illegitimate daughter Laurel born in Greenville SC in 1850 who is the 2nd great grandmother to a man living today in LA who is in his early 90's.  I have matches of Robert A Hawthorne Jr's grandfather Adam Hawthorne. A few of his descendants and tested and not Robert A Hawthorne Sr's children but his half brothers and sisters as Adam married twice. some of them are on this platform. While I appreciate and understand you are trying to help, the actual work has been done. You are correct CTS241 is a large group but with matches it can be worked out. My cousin 3rd cousin born in 1965 did research to find his father and found him. He paid Ancestry.com to find his mother and they found her. It is not always so clean as that. but you can find your family but it does take effort.

Answer 5

My surname is Hodge. We have a 'missing link' to our European ancestor. I live in Texas and the male line goes back some generations prior to that in this state.

Comments

If any or all of you could say where in Europe your family lived, it would help all of us.  I know all of their moves once in the US and am much more fascinated by their lives in Europe.  We need locations.

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The interesting part of this is that my family has both Alexander and Hodge, and you have the same male haplogroup.  Can you track your family for the last 300 years?  I'm wondering if we could be distant cousins.  My father's paternal grandmother was a Hodge.

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Hi Susie. I am new to this site. I took a screen shot of what I have on ancestry.com starting with my great gf but I guess I can’t post photos on here? Let me know if there is a way to do that or to send it to you another way. I don’t know if it is 100% correct but should be close. No one seems sure about John DeBoe. That is where our research ends. I would love to find out whether that is an accurate name for him, more about him and where he was from... who his parents were. I think he was our first Hodge to come to America. My grandfather was James Clarence Hodge and he was named after his grandfather, Dr. James C Hodge. I’m hoping someone here has my missing link!

In the meantime, where do you think the Hodge’s originated? I haven’t even read through this subject yet. I’ve been traveling.

Hope to solve the mystery soon!

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Ms Hodge, I don't know if I can post my email on here but it is suzannetvls (at) msn (dot com).  That is an L after the V, not a number 1.  I found my Hodge line in KY, and I believe my line came from Blount Hodge.  I need more DNA contacts to establish this.  Have you taken a DNA test?  I am on 23 and Me, Gedmatch, and FTDNA.  Hodge is my father's grandmother's name.  Her father I believe was Elijah Frank Hodge.   At the time she married, she lived in Ohio.  Hope we can figure this out!

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My aunt's first husband was a Hodge from Delaware. His name was Donald Hodge. I recall he was a ginger and very tall. He lives in Smyrna, Delaware.

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Laura Hodge Garber,

Did you receive my email address?

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my Hodges line

Comes from South Carolina

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I just took Ancestry DNA and found some Hodge connections there.  The problem with Ancestry is that you can send messages all day long, and no one ever replies.  It's a waste of time.  Almost everyone on 23 and Me responds.

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Not sure if this relates to your comment about “John Deboe”, but my fathers paternal haplogroup is R-cts241 as well. I have a direct descendant named John DuBose who would also have been the same haplogroup. It’s possible he could be who you are speaking of? The DuBose family tree has been heavily researched and mapped over the years by many and shouldn’t be hard to find on any of the genealogy websites!

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Please contact me at suzannetvls (at) msn (dot com).  That is an L after V, not the number 1.  Since we have both Hodge and Alexander, it shouldn't be impossible.   Suzie

Answer 6

I am haplogroup R-CTS241 and my last name is Hargis.  My paternal and maternal families settled in southeastern Kentucky.  It appears that R-CTS241 descended from R-M269, Niall of the Nine Hostages, (Ui Neill Dynasty), a ruler in northern Ireland and Scotland.  The Ui Neill dynasty ruled Ireland from the 7th to the 11th century, C.E.  I was not surprised with my ancestry results, 99% European.  If you wish to contact me, you can do so at HargisDL@gmail.com

Comments

The Niall ydna is M222 but unfortunately 23&Me just confuse everyone by using the Niall tag for people who aren't M222.  They use this for anyone that is M269 so it is completely misleading.  People that are R-CTS241 are thousands of years separated from M222.  Nearly all M222 men have Scots and Irish names and have recent origins there.  Just very misleading by 23&Me.

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@M Redmond  23andMe aren't the only ones who use this different naming system and then confuse it all by not sequencing deep enough to get past the region that has the highest percentage of M269. You have to either do fully sequenced testing or some kind of SNP Marker Testing to actually get any location specific details. My grandfather was Portuguese, born in Azores and lived in Douro River Valley of Norte Portugal.

I carry the Basque as well as the Jewish Marker and on the Basque note... I like most family are Rh-Negative. Several of the most rare in AB-Negative are in the family as I assume Rh-Negatives seem to be attracted to other Rh-Negative and AB-Negative (my son) must have one A-Negative Parent and one B-Negative Parent. Also Basque people have the highest percentage of Rh-Negative blood Factors and are very high on the percentage of them that is Rh-Negative around 40%!  

Real Reason they all say the same thing about being descendants of 'Niall of the Nine Hostages'? Is because they don't dig very deep and only test for the most prevalent Haplogroups and markers. That's why 23andMe gave me M269 claimed the Niall connection and yet gave me the Azores Marker and then expect you to figure out that can't be both. Because in my case, you can't have Azores Marker and the Niall marker at the same time.

You are either British, Scotch or Irish of the Isles or Portuguese born of the Azores like I am. But that still doesn't give me any admixes and only going to M269 dept of sequencing is lame. But they try to randomly guess most everyone that comes up positive for R1b anything.

Above 90% R1b is in Ireland and other countries get lesser percentages. But reality is they assumed everyone is naturally carrying Irish Genes, instead of from somewhere else. All their answers are canned quotes from around the web. They all act like they know more than they do and much of their information is full of errors just for that reason alone. Seems 90+ Percent means all settled lands by Iberians making up the 1st and 2nd most used languages in the World today are Spanish and Portuguese when the two Global Empires were created in what was called the 'Age of Discovery' of Henry the Navigator of Portugal!   ....and don't worry.... they'll probably make this all even more confusing by digging up his bones and claiming there are 10 Million descendants of Henry the Navigator soon enough!!! ;-P  ....just knowing I'll at least be on that one.... maybe or at least claimed to be! :D

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23&Me test for M222 which is the Niall marker but they just confuse all M269 testers by using Niall and the Ui Neill in their description.  M222 is very far down the M269 tree under L21.  It is basically only Irish and Scots that carry M222 and of course their descendants in the US.  People that get only M269 on 23&Me aren't L21, U106, U152 or M222 because they test for all of them.  The subclade they don't test for is DF27 which is what most Portuguese and Spanish end up as.  My paternal ydna is indeed M222 and having the 23&Me test will give you that info.

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23 gave me the Niall marker to, so what I do went over to FTDNA and Spent $$$$$$ nd found out that I am R-L21 which is R-CTS241, and now I need to spend more $$$$$$ to go deeper and find out what 23 told me already!! to bad a company can not start you at what you know instead of killing everyone with all thier hard earned cash and telling them the same thing just in a more confusing way!!!!

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I don't know why 23&Me mislead people with the Niall moniker.  23&Me test for M222 so if you didn't get that at 23&Me your ydna is not the Niall of the Nine Hostages type. It all depends on people's interest how much they will spend.  I've spent a fortune on dna testing.  A lot of tests with ydna can be a long term commitment and can take a while to yield some constructive results.

Answer 7

My paternal haplogroup is R-CTS241. My paternal line is Scottish and descends from Clan MacIain of Ardnamurchan.

Answer 8

Hi, I’m new here! I’m a female but I was able to get my dad’s haplogroup R-CTS241 from 23&me. I’ve also tested him with ancestry two years ago and realized he had a ton of cousins that don’t fit in our tree, matched with zero “Weigand” surnames, and had zero German. We’ve since deduced that his father was from an affair in 1918 in Baltimore, MD. I’ve done several close cousin trees and believe that his paternal grandfather was from the Rock Hall/Kent County area of Maryland’s Eastern Shore, but even with the triangulation I’ve done, I can’t seem to pinpoint the correct family surname. I’m waiting on FTDNA matching to be uploaded and available to see what matches we get. The closest matches on 23 and GEDMATCH were R-L21 which I understand R-CTS241 is a subclave of. Other than FTDNA matches, I’m not sure where to go next or what else to do - I’ve been doing genealogy research for about 5 years now, but still feel like a newbie. Any help would be appreciated!

-Erin

Erin.weigand at gmail dot com

Comments

You can also upload the autosomal DNA to MyHeritage (free unless you want more details there).

Answer 9

DNA analysis on the paternal line can be helpful. But for it to answer questions about a close relative, say grandfather or great grandfather, you will need two things. 1. Y DNA results at a very detailed level, Like FTNA Big Y. That is because most haplo groups that people quote are for a branch that's thousands of years old ( example CTS 241). Meaning a million people could easily fall under it. It isn't helpful. Secondly you need several male relatives to have tested at that level too. That is because Haplo Groupings become more and more detailed the more there are close relatives helping to pinpoint all the branches. For DNA tests to give you an answer on a close relative that you don't know about, it would be just luck.