How many Medieval men were named Dolfin?

+4 votes
177 views
Hello all... I was under the impression there was only one Dolfin (son of Gospatric) during the Medieval period. Is that incorrect? I see 6 men named Dolfin in the Medieval section on WikiTree ... are some duplicates or all they all truly different?
in Genealogy Help by Bree Ogle G2G6 (8.7k points)

4 Answers

+1 vote
Thanks Bree, I won't be in a position to check for sure until later today, but from memory I think there are a couple of different men with the first name Dolfin in the medieval period.

(There are also 2 profiles with the first name as Dolphin which also need to be considered)
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (478k points)

According to Stewart Baldwin in The Henry Project, there is a Dolphin the son of Maldred, and brother of Cospatric, citing Symeon of Durham.  

Charles Cawley in the Earls of Dunbar though leaves out this Dolfin, though he cites Simeon of Durham in other contexts.  He does name the Dolfin, son of Gospatrick, and also another Dolfin son of Uhtred but I'm wondering if he has some of this family mixed up.

The People of Medieval Scotland website, has 9 men named Dolfin

Before we start proposing any merges, we need to try to work out who the profiles on WikiTree are meant to be.

Stewart Baldwin says Maldred was the father of Dolfin, Waltheof and Gospatrick.  Cawley says Gospatrick was the father of the same 3 names.  I think they're the same 3 brothers and different ways of reading the Latin.

As quoted by Stewart Baldwin it says "ex qua Maldredus Cospatricum, patrem Dolphini et Walteofi, et Cospatrici".

If you put a verb habuit in, it says Maldred had Gospatrick the father of Dolfin etc.  Otherwise, I don't know how you read it.

Thanks RJ, I obviously didn't look at the original closely enough.  I wonder why Stewart Baldwin went with his interpretation?

Perhaps there's more discussion on the GenMedieval group?
I think this is pretty important given that some family genealogies attempt to trace back to a Dolfin, but then the Scots team will come in and point out the bogus links. So then what I'll see (not so much on WikiTree but elsewhere), is that the family genealogy will then connect to another Dolfin ... which is confusing.
The POMS website for Cospatric http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/person/443/# certainly seems to agree with Cawley, that Dolfin, Waltheof and Cospatric were sons of Cospatric not Maldred.

The English translation of Simeon of Durham also has that interpretation.
Check with Stewart?
+4 votes

3 of them line up

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/DeBradley-Family-Tree-1

I think we can assume they came from the fantasy factory.

by Anonymous Horace G2G6 Pilot (568k points)
I presume the middle one Dolfin Fitzgopatrick, is maybe meant to be Dolfin son of Gospatric, that Bree mentions?
Who knows.  You could just say he's a fictitious character inspired by a real man of the same name.  Nothing else about him matches.
Dolfin Thornfinnsson did exist though in Northumbria not the Orkney Islands, so that profile should be retained, though disconnected from any descendants.
So then it's safe to say there were at least 2 Medieval men named Doflin... Right? ...

I was reading something and noticed that some of the Gospatrick line had lands in ... I think Lancs.... And now that the other has been identified with Northumbria, it's getting interesting:)

Make that at least 3 - https://opendomesday.org/name/149000/dolgfinn/ this is maybe meant to be the Dolfin of Bradley found here, though the dates are out, and I doubt he is directly the father of Richard de Bradley.

+4 votes
MedLands is interesting.  Many people now take the Raby line only as far back as Uchtred, but Cawley goes another 3 generations to Crinan the Thane.

Who he equates with the Lay Abbot, but I don't think that's undisputed.
by Anonymous Horace G2G6 Pilot (568k points)
+2 votes
Bree, thanks for raising the question. I am the the Profile manager and profile creator for Dunbar-2578, Dolfin "Lord of Cumbria" son of Gospatric. I was doing a lot of work/research on this family in 2016-17 at the suggestion of John A and a couple others. And when I thought there was enough persuasive clarity on the family I was involved May 2017 in some merging and write ups. I see that in the past 24 hours you have made some helpful edits to improve particularly the sourcing and some other usefull information. Thanks for your skill there.

I would love to hear directly on G2Geuroeristo specifics on cleanup and historic data.

I agree with RJ that the profiles for Fitsgopatric-1 and Fitzdolfin-3 are fantasy bogus and should be removed. If you want to merge Fitsgopatric-1 in Dunbar that is fine to wipe it out, but I will not accept descendant.

The McGuigan, N. (2015) source is particularly persuasive on the impact of Gospatric and his descendants, based on the author's detective work  toward history, politics and the subtle logical findings. He has such a wealth of sources that there were a lot more named players and more dispersed shifting power than typical genealogy texts with straight lines and generations.

Just in case you were uneasy with Dunbar as the lnab, I would confirm it isn't based on Historic usage pattern, After a lot of thought, it is a practical choice intended to provide consistency for a couple generations of House of Dunbar.
by Marty Ormond G2G6 Mach 5 (54.7k points)
See comment above about Dolfin Thorfinnsson.
agree about Thorfinnsson. You are speedy John. I recognized his name, but couldn't remember where I had been seeing the info. agree that the descendants be scratched. lets see if more wisdom comes from the members over the next week or so. Yell real loud if you need any merge approved. I've kinda dropped off the grid this summer regarding my availability for WTree. for next month probably logging lots of miles from sea to sea from desert to mountain ranges. Wont have my home computer but periodically can muddle through my emails and find some WiFi locations to read a small number of items posted.
Thank-you both and yes, please merge out as many duplicates as possible. It will make it easier for me to understand some of the weird genealogies I've been studying:) ... I tend to stay out of Scotland, so I'm happy to defer and wait on the experts:)

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