Is there a Bibigny?

+4 votes
139 views
I adopted an orphaned profile for Sandregisisle Seigneur DeAustrasia DeBibigny, and have been attempting to dig anything to tell me where this name came from and is the man a real person.

His LNAB needs improvement, but more needs to be known about him before one can think of a more proper LNAB.

He is, if his name is a clue, from a place called Bibigny, which is sometimes said to be in medieval Neustria, maybe modern Belgium.  But I can't find such a place or a reference to it.  Meanwhile, some popular genealogies turn Bibigny into Bobigny, which is a suburb of Paris.  

Anybody have some insights?
in Genealogy Help by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (362k points)

3 Answers

+4 votes
Considering that his "half brother" Bodegisel is semi-legendary and seems to be a conflation of 2-3 historical people, I have serious doubts that Sandregisisle or whatever his name was even existed.
by Jessica Key G2G6 Pilot (198k points)

 Sandregisisle (Lord) de BOBIGNY (BIBIGNY)

Jessica, you're right of course, and if he never existed, then we want to document why we believe he never existed, and if possible how the legend about him developed.  

And part of that is how "Bibigny" morphed into "Bobigny" (or vice versa!).  There are a number of references in popular genealogies like the one Lucy found, where the writer has combined both.

Meanwhile, if he didn't exist, somehow a legend about him developed and the legend associated him with a place called Bibigny.  Which itself may have existed or may not!
Sorry I might be being a bit pedantic here or mis-interpreting, but Bodegisel wasn't legendary, there are as Jessica states several men with that name in the early sources.

Bodegisel, the son of Mummolin, who was killed in 588 while travelling as an envoy to the Byzantine emperor is mentioned in Gregory of Tours, History of the Franks, and this was during Gregory's lifetime, so not something he is reporting from an earlier period.

I agree though that Sandregisisle appears to have never existed even if you correct the spelling to Sandregisel.
+3 votes
Does the word legendary necessarily mean fictitious ?

Legendary also means "to be remarkable enough to be famous or very well known".. per the Oxford dictionary.  

Sometimes I think the meanings are misconstrued and good information is being ignored.

Just something to think about.
by Rebecca Snider G2G6 Mach 1 (13.9k points)
"Fictitious" is a much more pejorative term, suggesting a deliberate or knowing falsehood.  Legendary builds on the definition you provide -- if something placed in time 1500 years ago were not remarkable in some fashion, it never would have been written down.  But legends develop sometimes by accretions of fictions on top of an actual fact, or sometimes by embellishment of something originally misunderstood.  If I write a fake genealogy today it is a fiction and if I do it for money, it's a fraud.  But if someone did it 300 years ago, and the material has been treated as fact and found its way into numerous other genealogies, then it has become a legend, and disentangling truth from fiction in each affected genealogy becomes a challenge.  

I'm a firm believer that you have to document what is false in order to protect what is true, but until you know for sure, "legend" seems like a more neutral way of saying, "this is out there, and a lot of people repeat it, but we're not sure what it is."

Can't help but think/comment about 'alternative facts' or 'alternative truths' (which, until recently, weren't in our vocabulary) . . .  frown wink

Whatever they say elsewhere, in genealogy it is still true that one may be entitled to one's own opinions, but one is not entitled to one's own facts!  

And as I've worked on profiles, I have just about universally experienced the respect for facts on WikiTree;  we might have different preferences for who we would like John's mother or Joan's father to be, but when clear cut, well documented facts emerge, the matter is settled and we happily move on to the next challenge!

Thank heavens for small miracles!!  That's why I'd rather discuss genealogy than politics!!  cool

+1 vote

I think the wife is obviously an amalgamation of various women named Gertrude (or Garitrudis) with names like de Soissons, Von Franconia, but the Hamage section may mean she is partially St Gertrude of Hamage or of Cambrai.

I can only find a French Wikipedia page which indicates she did exist, although I think the sources for her are from the 10th and 12th centuries and I notice WikiTree already has at least 3 profiles for her https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Orleans-66

As to Sandregisisle, I can only think that perhaps the name is meant to be Ansegisel?

In any case I think I would split them up and merge accordingly.

by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (478k points)
Or there is a Landegisel who was the brother of Nanthilde one of the wives of Dagobert I,  Some of the online genealogies make Sandresgisisle the father of Nantilde, although her parentage is unknown.

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