Charles Weiner - Philadelphia

Question

I am looking for any help on Charles Weiner born October 25, 1897. He was married to Mae "Mamie" Oshiver and they lived in Philadelphia and had a daughter named Ruth Weiner who married and became Ruth Marino. I have a DNA match to Ruth Weiner and I do have Weiners in my tree but none that match up to her.

Anyhow I found a death certificate from Philadelphia for Charles Weiner that has his DOB, DOD, and his Wife was Mamie Weiner and his father was "Louis" presumably Louis Weiner.

This is the marriage record for Ruth Beatrice Weiner and Coradino Rocco Marino. It lists Charles Weiner and Mae OShiver as her parents.

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9279&h=27509466&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AFO235&_phstart=successSource

Comments

What is the number off the death Cert, You have,????

Answer 1

Name:	Louis Wener [Louis Winer]
Age in 1910:	53
Birth Year:	abt 1857
Birthplace:	Russia
Home in 1910:	Philadelphia Ward 1, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Street:	Beulah Street
House Number:	1401
Race:	White
Gender:	Male
Immigration Year:	1892
Relation to Head of House:	Head
Marital Status:	Married
Spouse's Name:	Tessie Winer
Father's Birthplace:	Russia
Mother's Birthplace:	Russia
Native Tongue:	English
Occupation:	Tailor
Industry:	At Home
Employer, Employee or Other:	Own Account
Home Owned or Rented:	Rent
Farm or House:	House
Naturalization Status:	Papers
Able to Read:	Yes
Able to Write:	Yes
Years Married:	36
Number of Children Born:	10
Number of Children Living:	7

Source Citation

Year: 1910; Census Place: Philadelphia Ward 1, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Roll: T624_1385; Page: 12A; Enumeration District: 0011; FHL microfilm: 1375398

Answer 2

Hi Matthew,

This is very confusing.  Do any of these people have profiles on WikiTree?

I found this Charles Weiner in Philadelphia, born 1897, with a daughter Ruth, but his wife's name is Bessie.  It says both his parents were born in Russia:

"United States Census, 1930," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XHWB-JLH : accessed 29 July 2018), Charles Weiner, Philadelphia (Districts 0001-0250), Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States; citing enumeration district (ED) ED 183, sheet 18A, line 10, family 299, NARA microfilm publication T626 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 2002), roll 2128; FHL microfilm 2,341,862.

Here is his WW I draft registration, nearest relative Bessy Weiner:

"United States World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6K8-5XY : 13 March 2018), Chas Weiner, 1917-1918; citing Philadelphia City no 40, Pennsylvania, United States, NARA microfilm publication M1509 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.); FHL microfilm 1,907,764.

I found on Ancestry the death certificate you mentioned, and on FamilySearch marriage records for Charles Weiner marrying Mamie Oshiver in 1920.

But there was also a Harry Weiner with a wife named Mamie and a daughter Ruth, in Schuylkill County around the same time:

"United States Census, 1930," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XHHM-34N : accessed 29 July 2018), Ruth Weiner in household of Harry Weiner, Pottsville, Schuylkill, Pennsylvania, United States; citing enumeration district (ED) ED 91, sheet 8B, line 93, family 219, NARA microfilm publication T626 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 2002), roll 2146; FHL microfilm 2,341,880.

This Ruth was born in Russia, although both her parents were born in Pennsylvania.  Also in the home was a Moses Weiner, born Russia 1865, Harry's father.

No luck finding records of Ruth Weiner marrying Mr Marino.  Does any of this make sense to you?

Comments

Mae Oshiver/Mamie Oshiver is Charles' wife according to the death certificate. I am on my work computer now and don't have the files that I saved they were PDFs. I have a marriage certificate from Ancestry for Ruth Winer and Corrodino Marino it lists Ruth's parents as Mae Oshiver and Charles Weiner. 

Anyhow, none of these people have Wikitree profiles from what I can tell. But my Uncle and I have a match to Ruth.

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Here is the marriage certificate for Ruth that shows her parents names

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9279&h=27509466&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AFO235&_phstart=successSource

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OK, she's probably not the Schuylkill County Ruth.  But if she's the Philadelphia one, how would you account for a mother named Bessie rather than Mae?  Maybe a first/middle name thing?  Or maybe there was yet a third Ruth Weiner in Pennsylvania at the time.  Could Bessie be a second wife?  Mamie Oshiver Weiner lived until 1993.  (Philadelphia Jewish Exponent Obituary Index at Ancestry).

Answer 3

I think I may have found Charles in the US Census records for Philadelphia:

It appears that he was living with his brother, Samuel in 1920. Their widowed mother, Bessie was also residing in the household. Both parents listed as being born in Russia.

I believe this is the same family in the 1900 census - with father still alive and more children.

It appears they were Jewish.  Charles may have been born with a different given name.  Bessie is probably Basia.  Lazarus probably went by Lazar but may also have used the name Louis. 

Comments

Charles' wife is likely the Mae Oshiver, daughter of Abraham and Anna Oshiver (here in 1920 census).

Charles' father, (Lazarus/Lazar/Louis) Weiner, died 17 Dec 1914 in Philadelphia and is buried in Har Nebo Cemetery. 

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Mae Oshiver/Mamie Oshiver is Charles' wife according to the death certificate. I am on my work computer now and don't have the files that I saved they were PDFs. I have a marriage certificate from Ancestry for Ruth Winer and Corrodino Marino it lists Ruth's parents as Mae Oshiver and Charles Weiner.

Anyhow, none of these people have Wikitree profiles from what I can tell. But my Uncle and I have a match to Ruth.

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How were you able to tell that Bessie was their widowed mother living with them? I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out if Bessie was an alternate name for Mae or Mamie.

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You have to look at the image of the Census record.  Not the same Bessie listed in 1930 as Ruth's mother.  Mae and Charles were not married yet when the 1920 census taker came around.

Aha!  The 'nearest relative' on Charles's draft card in 1917 must have been his mother, because he wasn't married yet.  So the only record found so far showing a wife named Bessie is that 1930 Census.

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Here is Ruth's FindaGrave, Ruth and Coradino inscribed on the same stone:

"Find A Grave Index," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVGP-94ZN : 13 December 2015), Ruth Marino, ; Burial, Langhorne, Bucks, Pennsylvania, United States of America, Our Lady Of Grace Cemetery; citing record ID 127072412, Find a Grave, http://www.findagrave.com. 

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Good lord, you guys are so much better at this than I am!

Of course the farther away I get from the core of my tree the harder things get. I am going to add this information to my notes for Ruth and Coradino. I am thinking if I can trace them back far enough I can find a link to my side of the Weiner family that explains how we have a DNA match.

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The only weird thing with this is that the marriage certificate says she was 22 but this grave says she was born in 1921. If she was 22 in 1939 she would be born in 1917 not 1921 like her grave stone says.

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Nice of you to say that, Matthew! 

It looks like all four of Ruth's grandparents were from Russia, as was your gggf.  But your gggf was not Louis/Lazarus, so you would have to go at least one more generation deeper in Russia to find a common ancestor.  That suggests your DNA matches involving Ruth can't be closer to you than fourth cousins.  What does the DNA say about the genetic distance?

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The 1930 Census also says Ruth was born in 1921.  She and Coradino went to Virginia to get married, even though they were both from Philadelphia.  Maybe there's an explanation for the age discrepancy in there somewhere.

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I am not sure what the distance is. It seems rather far.

I have a match to a 1st cousin twice removed at 1.8% or 127.8 cMs.

I also have a match to a 3rd cousin at .2% with 16.4 cM.

My Uncle has a 5% match with 394.2 cM to the 1st cousin.

The third cousin has a .1% 9cM match to the third cousin.

The third cousin is a descendant of Ruth Marino (Weiner)

Hopefully, that is clear as mud. And this may all be irrelevant information and I am just looking at the wrong Weiner family.

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Just to clarify:

Are both you and your uncle showing a match to Ruth or a descendant of Ruth?  And is your relationship range 3rd cousin or closer?

I ask, because Ruth Weiner Marino's ancestors were Jewish and unless you have a true 3rd cousin match or 2nd cousin or closer match, you will have a very difficult time finding the connection because of endogamy.

Endogamy is seen in populations where, because of laws or customs (or geographic location), marriages were restricted to just those within that small population. So a 3rd cousin match may actually be an 8th cousin in reality. And with so many Jewish records destroyed through the years.... it may be impossible to find the common ancestor.

Are both you and your uncle on Gedmatch?  If you want, I could take a look into your results for you (PM me with your numbers and those of Ruth/her descedant).

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OK, I will PM you just as soon as I can. The match to Ruth is not on GEDMatch none of her family is on there. I got these results on the My Heritage site.

Ruth is a descendant of the person that I matched with and I also partly matched with Ruth. Yes, this whole side of my family is Jewish. Event he ethnicity estimate says 3% Jewish. My Uncle's ethnicity estimate was 12% Jewish.