why isn't it labels?

Question

My experience of WT as a newbie was that I was supposed to read everyone's minds.  So I don't think that the discussion about "labels" is over.

Could there be an easily accessible page somewhere that lists these rather peculiar uses of general terms like stickers/categories/templates/things I don't even know yet, when they're used and why, how to know when one applies or another?  Stuff like that.  

I struggled with the index for a while and gave up.  I almost gave up on WT.  I looked at random profiles and tried to figure it out, then another WTreer told me to ignore most of it and gave me a tutorial of how to start documenting my own tree.  Now I'm pretty comfortable with it, but...

I still am mystified by the attachment WT lifers have to their particular understanding of WT terms and how little that is communicated to others.  And why questions get "closed" quickly after someone has been corrected/scolded for not knowing the terms.  So I am just asking that things be explained somewhere and that we can actually find where that is, because...

I really like WikiTree.

Comments

Actually, Robin, you may have hit on something there. How about a WikiTree dictionary on the site? Sometimes I go hunting for stuff in the Help index and can’t find it because it’s subbed under something I wouldn’t know of. 

Come to think of it, there might be one, but I have no idea under which Help index category it would be! 

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Maybe a glossary instead of a dictionary.

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Like this? :) https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Glossary

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Well, there you go! Thanks, daughter of Eorl! (See, I can’t find anything! It’s a brain thing.)

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Not just a brain thing Pip. There are a lot of excellent help pages available, but unfortunately many of them are very difficult to find unless you know where they are. Trying to guess their name and find them from the help index is a pretty hopeless task which is one of the reasons we get so many repeated questions on G2G. I will admit to finding both the Help Index and the Help Category somewhat baffling. I very often give up without finding what I am looking for.

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If you have ideas on how to improve them,  we're always happy to listen.

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“Not a brain thing...” Boy, am I glad to hear that, and it’s not an early onset of... whatever!

Here’s what I’ve started to do: put links where I can find them for quick reference. Saves time looking... and looking... and.....

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Éowyn, the Help index is helpful, but maybe an expansion would make it a little easier to find things. 

Here’s an example: if I look under projects for Notables, I don’t get the full information, just a quickie telling what the project is for and who the leaders and coordinators are. I have to hunt for that (well, not now. I put a in a link so I wouldn’t have to remember the trail that I and Hansel and Gretel put down that the birds ate.

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The pages themselves are usually good Eowyn. The problem is in knowing that they exist and finding them easily from the index. I have previously suggested a couple of additions to the index and they have been actioned promptly. Rather than having to post a question every time we cannot find something maybe the author of each help page could take a minute or two to reflect on what terms people might use if searching for it in the index.

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I think having some cross reference links could help. For example, the question about "labels." There could be a Labels link that says "See Categories, Stickers" which would give someone a chance to find the right thing.

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Thank you, Pip, Eowyn, Lynda, and Doug!  I'm glad it's not just me.

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I don't use the Help Index real often because I've learned that I don't think like the people who organized that Index. I do use the Help Category, where I look for likely terms in the alphabetical list. If I can't find what I'm looking for that way, I skim the whole list. If all else fails, I go to a search page to search for words likely to be on the page I want.

But most members seem to find that it's most efficient to ask a direct question in G2G. Somebody else is likely to have the answer on the tip of their tongue.

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Ellen, I absolutely agree with the futility of trying to use Help here to find anything I want to look for.  I gave up on it a few years ago and won't waste my time trying because I am so convinced that it will only end in frustration.

Eowyn, a few years ago I not only recommended organizing the labyrinth of myriad help pages, but I also recommended how to do it and even volunteered to take on the task, which I also recommended include designing a standardized format for help pages to make them more user friendly.  No one ever so much as acknowledged either my recommendations or offer.  As a result, it is no longer open.

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So, the Help Index and the Help Category are different.  Not only duplicate but mystifying.  And, to me, unknown until today.  I just don't get the idea of category, as used in WT.  As for stickers...think they have something to do with little boxes of widgets, but it's not really clear to me.

Does the Help Index have any relationship to Help pages or Categories or whatever they are, wherever they are?  Is there a way to find, in a central location, what written explanations are available?

Second, is there a list somewhere of "Space" pages that have been added for projects or individuals? (curiosity only, might make some interesting reading)  

Searching in G2G can help, but I don't seem to find relevant discussions most of the time.  It might be less tedious for those who've been here longer, if we could look up these things for ourselves.

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Thanks Gaile and Robin, I am pleased to know that I am not the only one that finds those two lists a little mystifying.

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Back in the day, there were members who didn't like the Help Categories because of how it was structured.  So the Help Index was also created to satisfy those folks.  There are people who prefer one over the other.  We used to have a Help Page Committee but that's been dormant for awhile now.  

As I said above, if anyone has suggestions on how it can be improved, we're happy to look at it. I hear a lot of "it doesn't work" but we (the team) have other priorities at the moment then to figure out how to restructure it or what needs to be added. You guys are the ones who use it the most and would know how it could be improved.  If a Leader is interested in reviving the Help Pages Committee, we can also look at that.

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Robin, we do have a free-space page index: http://www.wikitree.com/indexes/space.html

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Cool!  Thank you, Eowyn.

Answer 1

i hear ya Robin - can be so damn confusing the semantics of the lingo here - Labels are a similar thing to stickers in real life, but not here

-to me a template is a sort of outline/example thing that you can copy and then change to what you want to say on yours but here it is a little hunk of code that puts a profile into a project, that is quite similar to a sticker (not a label) but stickers only put you in categories, not projects

-categories seemed safe - but as soon as I figured a couple out they all got recategorized

and the funniest thing is n- to see a profile not connected to your family using the ID you have to log out and use a google search then come back in!  Crazy!

But with all that confusion I came in and started entering my tree and have been loving it for about 9 months now and I am sold on Wikitree

Comments

I’m sold, too, Navarro, even after not figuring out the tracker projects use!!

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Thank you, Navarro!  I really like working on WT and I really like the community.  It's just that it seems a bit un-workable at first.  Thanks for the support.

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Navarro, what do you mean when you say "to see a profile not connected to your family using the ID you have to log out and use a google search then come back in"?

If I know a person's ID#, all I need to do to get to the profile is enter the ID in the URL bar after the string https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/ -- so to find you I would enter https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mariott-18

And I have never had to log out of WikiTree to run a Google Search. If I want to search WikiTree from Google, I simply go to another tab and enter my search string in a Google Search box. If I'm searching all of WikiTree, my search string will include site:wikitree.com but if I want to restrict it to a particular part of WikiTree, I'll use something like site:wikitree.com/wiki or site:wikitree.com/g2g

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No Ellen I do that now, but for a couple of months I did it the other way!  Saw it here in G2G!  Funny but that was what I did because I did not know - like if a G2G had referenced a profile and it did not link that is how I used to go see it - not all the G2G info is the best way to go - which I am learning as I go along and now I tell folks if I know.

Had a couple of cousins try and warn me off - WT is too hard to use they said - but for me the proof is the efforts to validate and source and correct the myths and messed up trees that exist on the internet that you see - here we actually help one another even when we are no relation

Answer 2

The name Stickers was chosen last year when they were still in the development stage:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/441052/think-these-profile-stickers-replacing-recognition-boxes?show=441052#q441052

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/453610/should-these-style-rules-for-profile-stickers-made-official?show=453610#q453610

Interested WikiTreers discussed the name and use of Stickers before they were implemented.

Most potential improvements are discussed in G2G. Perhaps we need to encourage all members to read G2G and, at minimum, to follow the tags improvements and announcements (those tags should be hard-wired into all member profiles, in my opinion).

Encouraging members to review the drop-down menus, especially the Help Index, would certainly be useful, too, in educating everyone on the various terms that we use (that's how I became a "grizzled veteran!!").

Ultimately, each member decides for himself/herself how much effort he/she wants to put into WikiTree. But having clearer and more easily accessible guidelines is also necessary for all of us to perform good work here.

Comments

Thank you, Lindy.  I joined last January, so had no idea of those discussions or decisions.  I think that we might need a more organized "new member" tutorial, to cover all of the details that long-time members are tired of hearing about.  I understand both positions.  It's a bit of a barrier to those who have only just discovered WT, and it's tedious to long time members.  Maybe I'm asking if there are people interesting in providing some "history" or something like that for newcombers.  I'm not there yet, being too new.

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Just to be clear, Robin was offered a structured set of tutorials called the "Orphan Trail".  She backed out after two weeks.

A Greeter gave her the link to the New Member How-To Tutorials shortly after she joined.

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And just to be clear I did read the New Member How-To Tutorials shortly after being directed there.  I backed out of the Orphan's group/team because I could not understand the point that was trying to be made.

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Thanks for reshowing my answer, Eowyn!

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I've been a member since January of 2016, Robin. In that time, I've seen many changes (mostly improvements) that seem designed to standardize more of our work here.

However, sometimes our style guidelines aren't updated in a timely manner. Also, members who don't follow G2G tags for announcements and improvements may not know of these changes (some may not receive the emails, either); in turn, they may give outdated advice when answering other members' questions. Additionally, members who read older G2G posts may also give and/or receive outdated advice.

That's why I generally consult the Help Index nearly each time I answer a question related to guideline issues. I want to be sure that I am dispensing current advice.

Properly using any website requires staying updated on current guidelines, and WikiTree is no exception. All WikiTreers should be prepared to take the initiate to stay current, at least in those areas of interest, and especially if one is giving advice to others.

Answer 3

Just wondering why my (other) answer was hidden.

edit: added (other) to sentence above

Comments

No idea, Lindy.  I never saw your other answer.

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I was referring to my answer that may or may not appear above this answer, Robin. You had posted a comment, but I hadn't seen any other comments before my answer had been hidden. I know there was nothing that justified hiding my answer based on your comment, so I wondered if someone else had made a comment worthy of hiding.

I see my answer is back, with no hide-worthy comments, so apparently all's well.

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Cool!

Answer 4

I finally set up my own WkiTree Helps in a OneNote notebook organized by the way my brain thinks. I made sections (think tabs across the top of the page) that I needed help understanding and then made pages under each category for the things I’ve found helpful in the help section or here on G2G. Like most, I have found the alphabetical listing unhelpful unless you know exactly what you are looking for. And worse is that come across a help page only to learn later that the information it contains is no longer valid according to WikiTrees style and policy guides. (Annoying?? Heck yes!!)  

So far I have sections for Membership, Source Citations, Profiles, Projects, Categories, Templates, Stickers, and a Sandbox for my own copy-and-paste helps. Of course, I still have to enter the minefield that is the help section on occasion to find an answer to something, but my ON notebook is the first place I look.

Edit for typos...

Answer 5

I want to thank everyone who has joined the discussion here.  We are from different local cultures and vocabulary and mostly never meet face to face, so it is challenging to try to work together.  I appreciate that we are all trying.  Thank you.  

It gives me hope that this kind of effort is underway.  So, please do not take any of my comments, even if somewhat sharp at times, to be criticism of anyone or of your effort.  Just want that to be said above all.

Comments

That's nice, Robin. Thanks :)