Can anyone supply some LUCID information on Alan de Limesi ?

Question

This is a confusing profile... mixed with ones from other sites it has Alan born in 1030 died in 1162 as well as another being born in 1090 and died in 1162.  They have him married to Hawise who is also his mother and the confusion goes on and on.   Father is either Ralph or Randolph.  

Can someone please help.   I have it showing up as 3 different people in my family tree and he/they are direct ancestors of my husband's mother.

Thanks

Rebecca

Comments

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol3/pp36-40

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https://books.google.com/books?id=TrUHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=alan+de+limesi&source=bl&ots=1YWHz33k8v&sig=IisUQhl1LY4A7H9BsOYI6Rwz1Fo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOpJuA3N7cAhVJPawKHadkCm84ChDoATAFegQIAxAB#v=onepage&q=alan%20de%20limesi&f=false

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https://books.google.com/books?id=IqKCBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=alan+de+limesi&source=bl&ots=0HoSA3ys5X&sig=EJI9N-vVWrLXo9WHXEw4eoI-sA8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOpJuA3N7cAhVJPawKHadkCm84ChDoATAGegQIBhAB#v=onepage&q=alan%20de%20limesi&f=false

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https://books.google.com/books?id=2AUVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=alan+de+limesi&source=bl&ots=uFDkbVENBV&sig=s16F1QOTAL959Ybzn9bsshQoRSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOpJuA3N7cAhVJPawKHadkCm84ChDoATAJegQIAhAB#v=onepage&q=alan%20de%20limesi&f=false

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https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A36794.0001.001/1:6.104?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

Answer 1

Last year I discussed Limesi with Euroaristo (Doug). We looked at all the links Eddie has noted along with this one http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/issue6-1.pdf

The Lindsay Clan website link no longer connects to the stated page but was working last September. It is basically copied word for word by Dean Armoury in 'The Flemish'.  In fact on the book details page for the book someone has mentioned that Armoury copied other parts of his book from another website. Neither have references and I have no respect for that book.

There also appear to be duplicates:

Limesi-4 and Cushing-910

Limesi-8 and Cushing-909

Limesi-7 and Cushing-908

Limesi-6 and Cushing-907

Doug was contacting the pms to investigate but it looks like nothing happened.

Answer 2

Rebecca,

Wikitree doesn't have the various dates as you do.  Alan's profile shows him born c 1095 and dying 1162 with parents Ralph and Hawise.  From the sources I have looked at, those dates are the closest we can determine for him.

After seeing Vivienne's post as to Cushing duplicates, I searched trying to figure out why someone would have given them the Cushing surname.  I determined that they took it from a book, The Genealogy of the Cushing Family, published in 1905.  Parts of it are here

I have gone in and tried to update the profiles and add sources, as well as merge the Cushing profiles into the Limesi ones.  Hopefully it's in a bit better shape, but certainly could use some more assistance.  I think the soc.genealogy.medieval archives may be helpful.

Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project

Comments

Thank you all for the answers and I will be looking at those suggested sites.  Some I already had... but I do appreciate it. 

We worked for over 6 hrs on just this one family of his/my family while we were sitting on our front porch in the rain, yesterday afternoon and eve.  We eliminated one name after the other and read thru at least a dozen websites probably more.   At one point I had over 23 tabs open on my laptop with Geni and 11 with Wikitree and Wikipedia and the Lindsay clan plus more.   We wrote all names down and at one point we even think a whole generation may have been missed when profiles were entered on some sites, but I have to rearrange some pages (hard copies) to be sure.

The crux of it is that Alan Limesay was not a Lindsay (of England).  He was Limesay of France.  The connection isn't made until later via his granddaughter.  Anyway... here's what we've come up with SO FAR.  I'm still working on sources.

Rudolf de Toeni (c965-1095) was married to Adela de Barcelona (this is the one we aren't quite sure of because the sites confuse this Rudolf with the next generation)... issue - Ralph de Toeni (c995-1044)

Ralph de Toeni married Adelaide of Normandy - issue Randolph/Ralph de Limesay (c 1034/40-1093)

Randolph/Ralph de Limesay (companion to William the Conqueror) was married to Christina Avice de Northumberland note: NOT Hawise - issue Baron Alan de Limesay (c 1058 to 1162) in FRANCE, not England.  

Baron Alan de Limesay was (per one source) was 104 at the time of death. He married Hawise - issue Gerald de Limesay (c 1095-1185). By now Alan de Limesay was in England.

Gerald was married to Amicia de Bindun - issue Aleonora and Basilia who inherited everything.. plus another daughter and a son who died young w/o issue.  

Alenora married David de Lindsay of Crawford (married 1174) which is when the Limesay and Lindsay's came together and the name changes.  

The Lindsay information is readily available while the other Limesay information, is buried deeper. 

I am hoping this information can get added to the profiles but probably not because I'm not putting down the sources ... perhaps I'll share the sources when I get them all put together and sorted out, but right now I don't have the pre-1500 badge to contribute to any of the pages.  

But I do hope this can clear up some of the muck.   It semi-satisfies our questions right now.   We will be working on this more today.

I appreciate all your help.   :)

Sincerely,   Rebecca

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Don't forget that Ralph, Rudolph, Rafe, Randolph, Radulf, etc. are all variants of the same name and might all be applied at various times to the same individual. Birth dates we can only guess at. So you are not likely to ever get two identifications quite alike, even when the persons do turn out to be identical. We can only pick what we estimate to be the most commonly used name and call it "correct" and try to narrow the dates down as best we can. If you expect everything to match up, it will drive you crazy.

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Yes, ma'am we are aware of the name variances.. as with William and Guilliame, John and Johan or Johannas, and many more.  Thanks for the reminder.   We did discuss the differences in the Randolph/Ralph/Rudolf names yesterday.

With over 500,000 in our tree we've seen and try to apply all the variances.  Our notes reflect all the variances (we can find) and we're trying to make sure there aren't any "orphans" out there.   The original program used in husband's research was TMG so some of the information got lost with transferring to FTM and now we've settled on Legacy. (the new one)  

I've merged MY tree with his and unfortunately with the merge from FTM to Legacy, we ended up with about 240,000 MORE names than there should be via duplicates.  I have spent the last 6 months removing over 100,000 names so you can see I still have some work to do.   Alan de Limesay (Limesi) alone had 8 entries with 3 different spellings.  

Our searches included circa birth/death dates and a 10 yr deviation isn't outside the realm of possibility.  But when the differences exceed 60 or 70 years we look closer at the possibility of a missing person or even missing generation. 

Thanks for all the notes of possibility.  My husband said he spent days and weeks on just this one family.  His research was more than 2 decades ago and before I knew him, I still know by his work ethics that he was not telling me something I didn't already know about him.   He (and I am) dogmatic when it comes to this research as well as perfectionists and we want to make it as correct as possible ... and to have the internet as a research aid now is truly a gift.   I'm proud to say we are not novices at researching our ancestors.  

I started my genealogy research in the late 80s before I even had a modem in my computer.  ALL my research was done by hand, literally going from cemetery to cemetery, head stone to head stone as well as visiting the Mormon church in our area reviewing their small stack of CDs (the newest invention).   I was thrilled to death to get back to when my ancestors immigrated to America (in the 1700s) in a mere 3 months !!  All my contacts told me it would take me years and I did it in 3 months of dedicated researching.   Now I can get there in 3 hours, What a GIFT !  

We are truly blessed... and THANK YOU ALL for your help.   So .. onward.. to the next can of worms. 

Sincerely love my "job",

Rebecca