The ongoing search for Francois Diel and Julienne Coderre

Question

The search has gone back as far as year 2000 in other forums and probably longer with those who did not have the advantage of internet.

All dates related to this ancestor and his family are GUESSED, sources have been added when/where available.  And these are some of my very first profiles so  the bio formatting is not great.

In my search, the reason for starting WikiTree, I have had no better luck than my genealogy researchers.  I did come across this couple being listed as Metis on this link, but the link is no longer active: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/METIS/2006-01/1137525076

Francois DIEL-DYELLE
Francois DYELLE Julienne CODERE
Jan 13 1851 La Passe, Westmeath, Renfrew, Ontario
Rose VAILLANT
Pierre VAILLANT Rose M. LARIVIERE

Question #1: How accurate would this information be on this once upon a time web link?

Question#2:  Would anyone have access to books by Gail Morin:

:Volume 1: First Métis Families of Quebec, 1622-1748, Fifty-Six Families.

:Volume 2: Jean Nicolet and a Nipissing Woman,

:Volume 3: Martin Prevost and Marie Olivier Sylvestre Manitouabeouich

:Volume 4: Descendants of Pierre Couc dit Lafleur and Marie Mitequamigoukoue, an Algonquin

I have many names in these volumes I would love to check but will limit my query to… Probably in the second volume could someone check to see if there is a Doyle who came from Cork Ireland, landed (not sure where) and married a ”Sauvagesse”?  Perhaps there was a generation between Father in Ireland and this Francois Diel.  This missing generation may be the one who married a Metis or Sauvagesse.  Note: checked the Library here and they cannot get the books.  Ordering is not an option, especially when $6000 is the asking price on some of the volumes.

Question #3:  to my Irish cousins.  Are you searching for an ancestor by the name of John Jefferson Doyle, possibly out of Cork, was a captain of sorts; the story is a captain in the army but I question that, who had at least 1 son,  possibly 2 sons, who came to North America in the early 1800’s?  There is a possibility that there was a generation who came to America between JJ Doyle and this ancestor.

Another note: the names Francois Diel and brother Jean Baptist Diel seem to be to “conveniently” French for them to be first generations in Quebec.  I do know they changed names as emigrants came into Quebec, I can see Francis Doyle being changed to Francois Diel, especially if there is already an existing such name.  I do have issues with the name Jean Baptist, but I am fairly new to genealogy and still have lots to learn, and maybe John Baptiste was a usual name in Ireland.   And it may be this name that will help my Irish cousins with their/my search?

Thank you to all for reading this and, in advance, thank you for any help.

Answer 1

I think I have found the family of Pierre Vaillant who married Rose Larivière.

I am not 100% sure, so I created a new profile for Pierre Vaillant born in 1812.

If you think they are the same person, we can merge them ...

Comments

WOOHOO   I could not find the parents for Pierre Vaillant and that was going to be my next big G2G question.  THANK YOU !!!!  I am proposing a merge.

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I think by choosing best answer too quickly, I was excited !!! I took away the options to post more notes.  Did not know that would happen.  Just wanted to add about Francois.  Birth date was a very incorrect guess at 1828 and with the information on the census's: will need to go through but at a glance they look correct.  So will update those profiles.   I want to say THANK YOU to all for your help on this.  By no means are the questions answered but will post again once I sort through the data.

Danielle: if Francois and Julienne were not married in Quebec and thank you for checking that.  I think Ontario would be a safe assumption but I will not dismiss Manitoba.

Thank you all again for your help

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Anybody can change the best answer anytime ! Don't worry with that !

As long as the question is not closed, we can add answers or comments ...

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Oh Good I see that now.  I am not changing best answer, but also hope it will not discourage more interaction.  Again, thank you: You and David have been such a great help.

Answer 2

WorldCat lists quite a number of books by Gail Morin, although not every one is in every library that comes up. With luck, ones you need are in a library near you.

Comments

Hi George, thanks for your comment.  I did check our library and so far no luck in getting those books in our area.  Went to amazon to purchase but out of principle i would not consider any of those sales.  Even though the later volumes were priced at the high $50 it was the $6000; no those are not extra 0's by mistake, that chocked me.

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George: I went back into the books on Amazon, through WorldCat and discovered that kindle copies are available for $10.00 CDN.  Thank you for making me look at this a second time.  It was VERY helpful

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Outstanding!

Answer 3

Is Jean Baptiste DIELLE, husband of Angélique LARIVIERE, a brother of François DIELLE ? 

His daughter Angèle DIELLE got married in 1885 to Israel VILLENEUVE

Jean Baptiste DIELLE died in 1901 at the age of 87.

Comments

Hi David,

As far as I have seen Jean Baptiste Diel who married Angelique Lariviere and Francois Diel who married Julienne Coderre are brothers.  According to others, I have yet to see the proof.  And the big question is who are their parents???  Was it John Jefferson Doyle who stayed in Ireland or is there a generation that came from Ireland before these brothers?  I did not pursue the Jean Baptiste Dielle line as I wanted to straighten out Francois first.   Having said that i do have them attached as brother and also as sons to John Jefferson Doyle.

AND..thank you for those links. I did not know that Jean Baptiste Dielle died in 1901.  I will update his profile.

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Angélique LARIVIERE passed away in 1884.

In her death record, her husband is mentioned as Jean Baptiste DOYLE dit DIEL des Boisfrancs.

Witnesses Jean Baptiste DOYLE dit DIEL and Francis DOYLE dit DIEL

It seems to be a large family. Wouldn't it be possible to find two male descendants of the brothers for a DNA test?

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That DNA question would be for others to answer.  There is certainly more interest and information on the Jean Baptiste Diell married to Angelique Lariviere family than there is to Francois Diel who married Julienne Coderre.  Even their son Francois who married Rose Vaillant, daughter of Pierre Vaillant and Rose Lariviere is an enigma.  But that is another brick wall.  I don't know if this question has ever been posed: Are they in fact brothers?  Or is JB a son to Francois Diel and Julienne Coderre and the dates are really all mucked up.  I think the truth will be told if we can find the parents of either.

And again thank you for the link on Angelique, i will update her profile

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According to the Census of Canada 1901,
Jean Baptiste Dielle - Birth 14 Oct 1813 - Age 87 - Place of birth Province de Québec (rural)

Line 45 - 
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z004/jpg/z000161470.jpg

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Hi E Martin

I will look at the link more closely.  I see names on this census that may give me a clue to relationships in the Diels that I know of.  David did post the death and burial link for the Jean Baptiste that i have created a profile for and i would say that one is correct.  This one however may be a clue as to where to turn next.  Thank you so much for sharing this.

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Elmire MONGRAIN is Elmire DIELLE, a daughter of Jean Baptiste DIELLE and Angélique LARIVIERE. She was married to Benjamin MONGRAIN.

Their daughter Céline MONGRAIN, 7 years old in the census, was born on May 15th, 1884.

It's the exact date given by the census.

Same thing for Anne MONGRAIN, birthdate 28/AUG/1886 and her baptism record on September 7th, 1886, stating she was born on August 28th, 1886.

So, we can assume that the birthdate mentioned for Jean Baptiste DIELLE is correct.

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Same thing for Pauline MONGRAIN born on July 18th, 1888 according to the census. Her baptism record as Elizabethe Appoline gives the same date.

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David: You asked above are Jean Baptist and Francois brothers:   I am not even sure that Jean Baptiste and Francois who married Julienne Coderre are brothers !!!  I have only seen notes on message boards and it seemed to be assumed but I have never been able to tie them together.  The first time I have seen these names together is in Angelique Larivieres sépulture that you posted.  "Witnesses Jean Baptiste DOYLE dit DIEL and Francis DOYLE dit DIEL"  You would think that the "DOYLE dit DIEL" would be easy to interpret but how do we know this is not JB Father and HIS son Francois.  I am really curious to find the Francois that married Julienne or more specifically the parents of either of these.  I do know this couple had two girls, Rosalie who married Pierre Vaillant and Felonise who married Elzear Laforest.

Answer 4

There is a problem with Julienne CODERRE being the child born on February 6th, 1814 in Beloeil to Amable CODER and his wife Marie Véronique GIARD

because she passed away in 1815 (03/APR/1815). Burial 05/APR/1815. She was 13 months old and her parents are clearly mentioned: Amable CODER, a plowman, and Marie Véronique GIARD.

Her wikitree profile

Comments

I too had come to the conclusion that this is not the same Julienne Coderre.  I had hoped that the PM of this Julienne would have found a clue to my Julienne but that did not happen.  And, I was going to share this link to the PM and saw you had already done so.  Thank you for sharing your research and thank you for sharing your discovered links.

Answer 5

This is a source for ...

Félonise Vaillant - birth 23 Feb 1841 - baptism 30 Aug 1841

Le trente aout mil huit cent quarante un _ par nous prêtre soussigné a été baptisée Félonise, née le vingt trois février du légitime mariage de Pierre Vaillant cultivateur et de Rose Larivière de la Passe. Parrain Toussaint Larivière Marraine Marguerite Soucy (?) qui n'ont su signer
(Signé) Charland Prêtre

"Québec, registres paroissiaux catholiques, 1621-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L993-XNLH?cc=1321742&wc=9RL6-JW1%3A13628301%2C13628302%2C13845301 : 16 July 2014), Aylmer > Saint-Paul-d'Aylmer > Index 1841-1872 Baptêmes, mariages, sépultures 1841-1852 > image 79 of 373; Archives Nationales du Quebec (National Archives of Quebec), Montreal.

Comments

E:  The document i have on Felonise's profile is hardly readable.  thank you for sharing this one.

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Also: the birth date on the 1901 Census.... I did not recgonize that JB was living with his daughter at the time.  He must have passed not long after that.  I will up date his profile to show his birth date.  thank you again for that.

Answer 6

Is François DIELLE really born around 1828?

If he was indeed 45 years old in 1881, he was born circa 1836.

Could someone check the 1891 census?

Unless I am wrong, the family lived in Admaston, Renfrew South.

François DYELL is probably the same as Frank DYELL

Comments

A DYELL family in the 1891 census

What do you think?

There is Harriet, born around 1872 according to the 1881 census. She is 18 in 1891 = a birth circa 1873.

John, born around 1877 in  the 1881 census. He is 13 in 1891 = a birth circa 1878.

Rose Ann for Rose, born around 1866 in 1881. Born circa 1865 in 1891.

Angele is already married.

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Tharsile DIEHL married Alexander LAPLANTE in 1899

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Census of Canada 1871 - South Pontiac - Mansfield and Pontefract
 
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4395500_00195.jpg
 
Deyell Francis 34  ... Country or Province of Birth = Québec
Roselle 32
 
Francis 14
Angel 12
Demateel 10 (=Mathilde)
Rosalie 5
Addaline 4
 

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Census of Canada 1861 - Mansfield - Pontiac

http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108808_00421.jpg
 
Francis Deyele (Deyelle) 30 - Place of Birth Lower Canada
Rose 26

Baptiste 6
Julia 4
Francis 2

......

And the family of Baptiste Deyelle also in Mansfield  
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108808_00415.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108808_00417.jpg
 

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Census of Canada 1851
 
District: 20 - Ottawa (county)
   Sub-District  270 - ​Mansfield - Missing

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1851/Pages/canada-east.aspx

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Census of Canada 1901

Francis Dyall ... 14 Oct 1830 ... Age 70
Rose V ... 23 Apr 1834 ... Age 66

http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z002/jpg/z000084692.jpg

Children
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z002/jpg/z000084694.jpg

Answer 7

François Dielle and Julienne Coderre, no trace of a marriage for them in Québec.

The date of birth you have for Julienne is that of Julienne Coder, born and baptized 6 Feb 1814 in Beloeil to Amable Coderre dit Lacaillade and Marie Monique Girard.  (Marie Monique, but the baptism for this girl reads Marie Véronique, obvious clerical error.  She gets called Giard on a few records also.)  https://www.genealogiequebec.com/Membership/LAFRANCE/img/acte/2957045  Drouin collection baptism image, IGD membership required.

Julienne Coder born in 1814 died on 3 Apr 1815, buried on the 5th in Beloeil, aged 13 months https://www.genealogiequebec.com/Membership/LAFRANCE/acte/2958545 funeral IGD

So, the date for her is wrong.  That was another girl.  Sorry, can't find anything here to help you more.

Answer 8

Hi Nicole,

I think I have found the family of Rose Larivière, the wife of Pierre Vaillant.

Toussaint Larivière was the godfather of Félonise, born 23 Feb 1841.

Toussaint Larivière and Dina Garnache from LaPasse had a daughter Monique baptised 15 Sep 1847 Ste-Anne-du-Grand-Calumet.

Toussaint Larivière (son of Jean Baptiste Larivière and Rose Dufault) married Dina Garnache on 26 Aug 1845 in St-Jacques-de-l'Achigan.

Toussaint Larivière is the brother of Marie Rose Larivière, born 31 Jan 1820 in St-Paul-de-Lavaltrie.

If you think they are the same person, we can merge them  

Comments

Hi E - I need to do some follow-ups but it looks promising.  The other name associated with Rose Larivierre is Pascal Lariviere (and Joseph Lepine) who was witness to marriage with Pierre Vaillant.  Also will look for Angelique Beauchamp as this family name is associated with the Ouellette and Doyle/Diel families.  This almost looks like a woohoo.  You are soooo cool!!!!  Will let you know what I find.

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Bonjour Nicole,

Permettez-moi de vous écrire en français...

(1) On part avec le baptême de Félonise à Saint-Paul-d'Aylmer en 1841, elle est bien la fille de Pierre Vaillant et de Marie Rose Larivière de La Passe. Son parrain est Toussaint Larivière.

https://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Vaillant-55-2

(2) Ensuite, je recherche des Toussaint Larivière. C'est vrai il y en a plusieurs. Mais j'en trouve un dans le baptême de Monique Larivière le 15 Sep 1847 à Ste-Anne-du-Grand-Calumet.

Cette Monique Larivière est la fille de Toussaint Larivière et Dina Garnache de La Passe. Le parrain est Jean Baptiste Dielle et la marraine Marguerite Neveu. 

"Québec, registres paroissiaux catholiques, 1621-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G993-4HTX?cc=1321742&wc=9RL8-T36%3A14319801%2C14319802%2C13628803 : 16 July 2014), Île-du-Grand-Calumet > Sainte-Anne > Baptêmes, mariages, sépultures 1846-1876 > image 25 of 632; Archives Nationales du Quebec (National Archives of Quebec), Montreal.
...

(3) Le PRDH donne Toussaint Larivière né 31 Oct 1821 St-Paul-de-Lavaltrie, fils de Jean Baptiste Larivière et Marie Angélique (Rose) Dufault, mariage  1845-08-26 avec Dina Garnache - Grenache.

(4) Dans les enfants de Jean Baptiste Larivière et Marie Angélique (Rose) Dufault, il y a Marie Rose Larivière née 31 Jan 1820 St-Paul-de-Lavaltrie

...

(5) J'ai trouvé un Pascal Larivière né le 11 Apr 1803 Ste-Geneviève (Pierrefonds), avec un fils décédé 1829-09-21 Montebello, c'est peut-être lui le témoin du mariage de Pierre Vaillant et Rosalie Larivière le 14 Jan 1836 à Ottawa, mais je n'ai pas de preuve. 

Mais Marie Rose ou Rosalie n'est pas la fille de  Jacques Lariviere-voir 17 enfants et Geneviève Amable Lauzon
 
...
(6) Pierre Vaillant a été inhumé à l'Assomption.

L'Assomption, Lavaltrie, Joliette, c'est la même région.

(7) À propos des 'métis' ? Ce n'est pas parce qu'un baptême ou un mariage a été célébré dans une 'mission' que cette personne est métis. 

C'est tout ce que j'ai trouvé (au Québec). 

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Je vais m'aplliquer a l'étude de cette information après le SaT.  Et avec appréciation, je dit merci pour l'effort que tu me donne avec ma ligne Lariviere.  A gros, gros MERCI !!