Can a Pre-1500 Certified member merge Joenson-1 into Johnson-5330?"

+4 votes
WikiTree profile: Guttorm Unknown
in WikiTree Help by Pamela Leyden G2G Rookie (250 points)
retagged by Lynda Crackett
Both profiles are showing parents so the sourcing and merging process would need to start further up the tree.
Pamela, do you have any sources for this family?  All I've located are and trees . . .
The blog (referenced by the PM of the best profiles) has original sources - but it's all in Swedish and old Swedish.

2 Answers

+4 votes
I proposed merges for the duplicate parents.  The one set has no PM, so the PM on the other set can take care of the merges or approve them so a pre-1500 member can complete them.  Thanks for pointing them out, Lynda!
by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (555k points)

I think there are more versions of these.

For Jon Månsson Blix (Månsson_Blix-2) there is
John Mogensen Blix (Blix-56, merge proposed)
and also Joen Magnusson Blix (Blix-180)

So the fathers of Månsson_Blix-2 (Blix-13)
and  Blix-180 (Blix-8)
are also duplicates.

Eva, the PM doesn't want to do the merge.  I've asked him for sources.  Right now there's only a dead link to an ancestry tree.  Do you know of any sources?  Also, any idea on what the correct LNAB should be?
OK, I've done some research and made some changes to dates and locations.  The profiles are now being merged.  Thanks for pointing out the additional duplicate profiles.
Good work Darlene and Eva.

Good morning! smiley

I see the merge between the Blix-es went through.

I do think it's OK to have them with Blix as LNAB. The Swedish blog used as source by the PM of "the good ones" contains original sources, among those one from 1410, where the father of Joen is mentioned as Magnus Blixe (towards the end of the document). I think that is the same .pdf as is attached on the profile.

Anyway, the LNAB should absolutely not be Månsson_Blix - that profile and his father are from an infamous GEDCOM import and should just be gotten rid of by being merged away - there's no info in them worth retaining. I see that my pre-1500-qualified co-leader has adopted the most recent person in that line - but she has much on her plate.

See below, but "Blix" as an additional name to a patronymic is not attested in this family, until we encounter the descendants of Laurits Monson, a priest at Rödön who, I suspect, died in or around 1621.  More correctly, they could all belong to the "House of Blix" or similar, as the Swedish families of Blixencron and Blix claim the same ancestry.  I believe the LNAB should be the patronymic for these people.
The only strong opinion I have is that LNAB should never be patronymic+familyName but either or.
Agreed, Eva! :)
Agreed +1 :)
+3 votes

I would concur that the merge should be made of these profiles as they're all three clearly the same person.  Blix-56 has chunks of text wholesale copied from Marc Hernelind's website, which suffers from a number of problems, not the least of which is the author's severe linguistic limitation (which, of course, he can't help, but it makes for very difficult reading and impossible for automated translation). Månsson_Blix-2 lists nothing, but based on name, dates, and location, is the same as Blix-56.

Hernelid relies entirely, it would seem, on Rygh's 1961 article in Norsk Slektshistorisk Tidskrift, vol. 18, pp. 143-147 (available to buy from  I can save you the $25.  Hernelind also, inexplicably, copies out the entire contents of some of the charters cited by Rygh.

Rygh's article is highly speculative, and it appears that the "certainties" reported in the WikiTree profiles attached to Jon Månsson and on Hernelind's website should be considered highly uncertain.  Rygh makes this clear, however, and so it appears we have a classic case of things having been copied out of a pedigree without paying attention to the prolific ? peppered throughout.

Looking at the details in Rygh, Joan i Angestad (in the profiles here mistakenly called Jon or John (Månsson) (Blix) is not recorded with neither patronymic nor additional names.  He is mentioned, according to Rygh, between 1418 and 1441.  In Diplomatarium Norvegicum (hereinafter "DN") vol. XIV, p. 36 here it is made clear that Joan is married to a daughter of a man called Guze, and has a mother-in-law whose name is Eline.  Rygh guesses [" det kunne kanskje være den Gutzorm i Aghnahal..."] that this may be Gutzorm of Aghnahal , who's known from DN XVI, pp. 59-61.  There is no evidence that Joan of Angestad is the son of Magnus Blixe.

It is likely that Guttorm, (known 1483 and d. before 1494) OR his wife was the child of Joan at Angestad, and that either Guttorm OR his wife was the child of Olof at Angestad, as the property was united in Guttorm's children's property.  However, the exact relationships are not known, so we cannot say with any certainty that Guttorm was the son of Joan.  Thus Guttorm "i Angestad" should be disassociated from Joan, and have his name corrected to LNAB "Unknown" and a nickname of "i Angestad".  Cf. Rygh, p. 145.

Rygh considers Guttorms sons well attested.  Two of them, Olav and Faste, appear together in 1494 (citing DN XIV, p. 148); Faste appears with Philippus in 1490 (DN XV, p. 95).  Among Olav's offspring, only two are listed without ?-marks by Rygh. Joen Olavsen (profile Blix-182), is marked as the "son or daughter's son" by Rygh, of Olav Guttormson, and so with no intervening, known, person, this link should clearly be severed and the appropriate notes made in the biography.

As a further caveat, Hernelind's research for the later generations relies on secondary sources such as Bygdéns memorial of the priesthood of the diocese of Härnösand, and de Robelin's work on the Skanke family (which I have not seen and which does not, anecdotally, have a good reputation).

Here's the pedigree only from Rygh's article:

by Matt Engdahl G2G6 Mach 1 (14.9k points)
edited by Matt Engdahl

Whoops, that image didn't work properly, let me try again:

If you decide to work on these profiles Matt you should perhaps check this out as well;
Thanks, Maggie - will do. Unlikely in the short term though - too much to do with the Pigs, Priks, and Oxheads

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