Where does David Gates-1969 (1753 – 1798) and Samuel Gates-1970 belong?

+5 votes
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Where Does David Gates-1969 Belong!

(1753 – 1798 wt)

I recently joined/registered with WikiTree. I especially like their collaborative model and emphasis on sources not just names and dates. They also have a “personal” touch to helping you feel comfortable as you learn the ropes … nonetheless it is a puzzle at times as to what to do next.

I chose WikiTree as a place to actually enter my collected genealogical data to avoid redundancy and later to produce a GEDCOM file for use with other genealogical tools, especially the DNA type. My first steps involved creating paternal and maternal lines and branch out from there as I learned the ropes. Redundancy is avoided because a lot of ancient ancestors (PGM – Puritan Great Migration) are already in the database and you just have to learn how to connect to them with your more recent ancestors – saves time and if you have valuable facts to add there is a gentle process for doing it.

I write this narrative about David Gates-1969 born of East Haddam, Connecticut to sort out what I see as confusing facts. If I get them sorted out I will be either adding something to Gates-1969's story or recommending some changes and will learn the ropes.

In WikiTree David Gates-1969 is identified as the child of Samuel Gates-1970 and Rachel (Hayes-874) Gates. This is the principle fact I have trouble with. The sources in this entry stem mainly from IGI and Pedigree Resource Files. In this case those sources lead to a little more confusion by virtue of dates – typos perhaps.

In my state of innocence I created a Samuel Gates-4366, surprised that he did not exist in WikiTree already and became by default the “profile manager”. From my original source searches about Samuel Gates-170 and spouse were married in 1709/10.

Woodstock Vital Records (p21): Samuel Gates and Mary Trusdell both of Mashmoquet now Pomfret, Feb. 12: 1709.10

In my mind and record keeping I have always linked Samuel Gates-170 and my new creation Samuel Gates-4366 as father and son; as have others as in RootsWeb (as early as 2010) and I suspect this largely stems from the Barbour Collection (F104 A58 W48 v34(p156) and v36(p178-179)).

Their respective families are quite respectably identified by names, dates and location. Gates-170 was in Pomfret until at least 1722 (birth of daughter). His spouse, Mary Richards-2135 died in Ridgefield CT, March 26, 1732. Samuel Gates-4366 would have been ~22 when he married Rachel Hayes-874. Our other Samuel Gates-1970 would have been roughly 16. Rachel Hayes-874 would have been roughly 24 years of age.

I can add more details but I think this suffices to suggest that Gates-1970 and Gates-1969 should be disconnected from Gates-170 and Gates-4366 should take Gates-1970s place and his descendants put in place.

This spills over to Mary Richards-2135 whose record can be made more complete about Fairbanks.

WikiTree profile: David Gates
in Genealogy Help by William Gates G2G Crew (590 points)

So I think you are comparing these two right?:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Special:MergePerson

But you want to use the birth data of your newer one? And you have a source for it? 

The link for Special: MergePerson doesn't bring over the WikiTree IDs.
Sorry if I am unclear.  Gates-1969 and Gates-1970 are linked as son-father with Gates-170 being the father of Gates-1970.  I believe the former two Gates exist but have no relation to Gates-170. Vital Records for CT Pomfret and Ridgefield CT (Barbour Collection) enumerate families for Gates-170 (Mary) and my Gates-4366 (Rachel).

I do not think a merge is appropriate but I am new to WikiTree mechanics.
I don't know what the "MergePerson doesn't bring over the WikiTree IDs" means.  Of the options on side by side profile comparison I think I would select "reject" ?
When I pasted the URL to the merge, it didn't copy the profile IDs so you can't see who I'm comparing.

This is an iphone weirdness, I think. Let me try again now that I'm on my laptop... (I'll try later... I'm trying to "grok" William's message by looking at each profile.)

As for merges... Wikitree's primary principle is one profile per person. We don't do multiple profiles of the same individual. Any duplicates need to be merged.

But I think you're saying something else.  David was born in 1756. That's quite late for a marriage in the 1730s.

Do you have a marriage date for Samuel and Rachel?
William are you saying that you don't believe that Samuel Gates and Mary Richards are the parents of Samuel Gates who marries Rachel?

OR are you saying that the Samuel Gates who was born 1715 in East Haddam (son of some Samuel Gates) was not the husband of Rachel?

We have two different Samuel Gates -1970 and -4366 ; Rachel (Hayes-874) Gates is incorrectly linked to -1970 and David Gates-1969 is not Rachel's son. Rachel and Samuel-4366 were married in Ridgefield CT Apr 1,1734 - Barbour Collection.

Barbour Collection. The Barbour Collection of Connecticut Vital Records is an index to and transcription of most towns' vital (birthmarriagedeathrecords from the inception of the town to about the year 1850. There are two parts to the collection; a statewide surname index and a bound volume for each town.Jun 9, 2018

Barbour Collection - Vital Records for Connecticut (Birth, Marriage ...

libguides.ctstatelibrary.org/hg/vitalrecords/Barbour
In the context of the Barbourn index 10 children are identified as of Samuel and Rachel born from 1734 thru  1752.  None are named David.

Okay, yeah, I saw that Barbour list of children. That David was "youngest child" (and supposedly unrecorded child) of Samuel and Rachel was proposed as "probable" by Stephen Whitney Phoenix, The Whitney Family of Connecticut, and Its Affiliations..., Volume 1 page 65.

William, do you have an alternative for David's father?

It also seems from your notes above that you're concerned about the Samuel Gates born 1715 being too young to be husband of Rachel Hayes (who married one Samuel Gates about 1733), yes? I concur.

So if Rachel didn't marry Samuel b 1715, which Samuel Gates did she marry?

Thanks for bringing this mess to our attention. :-)

Two Samuel Gates died in 1793.  Barbour/Norwalk records Samuel Gates, s. of Samuel and Ruth, b Feb 8 1759 d Jul 25 1793 [LR 19p3]. Fairfield Norwalk Probate docket 2305.

The older Samuel Gates, d Sep 30 1793 ae 84.  I believe we all deduced he was born in 1710 from the age 84 (v1 p206) and the record of his father Samuel and mother Mary's marriage as 1709.10 as recorded in Woodstock Vital records. Mary had been a widow since ~1707.

The grandson died before the grandfather by a few months. Danbury Probate docket 1920 was administered principally by Samuel of Norwalk and Jonathan of Ridgefield plus Thomas St. John. The former two are almost certainly sons (or regarded as such) and administrator Samuel is most likely of Samuel & Ruth.

I sent a private message to Keith a couple of days ago, no response so far and I am looking for possible explanations of what seems most plausible.

To the extent possible an illegible "5" or "6" (explains age discrepancy) could be a "0" and Samuel and Mary could have gone to East Haddam for a bit.  I have no idea about what to do about David-1969; same with Gates-1970 and Gates-4366.

I want to try rummaging around East Haddam CT records ... fortunately I live close to the Wisconsin Historical Society with its excellent library.
I want to thank everyone for the input and feedback today.  The ideas and thoughts have been stimulating ... guess that may be why I feel a little burnt out.

I retraced and re-examined a lot material today and made some discoveries of "new" work which I will try to share coherently tomorrow.

So as not to be accused of "drama" I still don't know what to do with David Gates-1969.  I have become more resolved that Gates-1970 is not his father nor is Samuel Gates-1970 the son of Samuel Gates-170.  I never would have thought I could have remembered all those numbers (I didn't).

I am attaching two narratives: (1) proposing leaving David Gates-1969 as and where he is and (2) a "relabeling of Gates-1970" with the "correct" details about, birth, location, etc.  I would appreciate any feedback either on content and procedure.

(1) 

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Where Does David Gates-1969 Belong!

(1753 – 1798 WikiTree),

authored August 13th 2018

[Postscript (August 26th 2018):

This has been written to clarify the question in the above title. David-1969 should probably stay right where he is as a “probable” son of Rachel (Hayes-874) Gates. My preference would be with a note in the profile about the reason for probable.

One of the WikiTree “Helpers” originally suggested I file this as a post, more or less as a question, especially since I was proposing or questioning “people relationships”. It was a good recommendation as I had previously sent a private message to the “profile manager” but had not yet received a reply. In summary I was suggesting that David Gates-1969 (WikiTree adds these serial numbers as profiles get created) was not the son of Rachel (Hayes-874) Gates. Second I was suggesting that Samuel Gates-1970 was not his father nor was he Rachel's spouse. I still hold by that assertion and will develop the evidence in another entry in this blog.

My reasoning should have included a careful review of my own files as I was in this case too focused on the Barbour Collection where nine children of Samuel and Rachel were listed, and David was not among them. One of the “Helpers” in G2G suggested that the Whitney Genealogy may have been the first source to suggest David as child. The Helper wrote, “That David was "youngest child" (and supposedly unrecorded child) of Samuel and Rachel was proposed as "probable" by Stephen Whitney Phoenix, 1878, The Whitney Family of Connecticut, and Its Affiliations..., Volume 1 page 65.”

Another G2G Helper went to the Torrey record of the Stephen Gates family published in THE NEW ENGLAND HISTORICAL AND GENEALOGICAL REGISTER, 1966-1967. David Gates is listed by Torrey as a possible child of Samuel and Rachel and married to a Jerusha Whitney (1774). As I re-examined the Torrey document I did notice that, James Gates had also married a Whitney, Polly Whitney. James would be the immediately older brother to “the possible” brother David. Both James and David later had relocated to Vermont.

James was born in August 1752 and David in June 1753 [Whitney1878]. David could perhaps be attributed to other Gates families in proximity in Fairfield County but this has not been pursued. Samuel's brother Jonathan had eight children in his will, none of them David. Perhaps the WikiTree entry for David Gates-1969 can have a note added about the “possible” assignment. One of the G2G Helpers did modify the entry to include the Whitney source.

The children of Samuel Gates-170 and Mary Richards-2135 (m.1709.10) absent Samuel JR (he is not listed in Barbour) were born in Pomfret (1712-1722) Gates family in Pomfret. The WikiTree profile for Samuel Gates-1970 reports he was born in August 14, 1715 but in East Haddam, CT [Barbour]. Torrey [NEHGR1966-67] reports Samuel as perhaps born born in Pomfret, 1710, but misreports his death as 1798. One theory was that the death was misreported as 1798 and should have been 1793, from ae of 84 at death, as reported, in the Barbour Collection. The death date of Gates-1970 (spouse Rachel) was before December 1793 by Connecticut Probate Records, docket #1920, Hartford State Library. From the docket #1920, Jonathan Gates of Ridgefield, Samuel Gates of Norwalk and Thomas St. John all of Fairfield County were the administrators.

Using geographical locations and children births [Barbour] Samuel Gates of Norwalk is likely the spouse of Ruth (Olmstead-5367) Gates and thus the son of Samuel Gates-1970. Jonathan Gates of Ridgefield is probably also a son of Gates-1970. I believe Thomas St. John is an in-law via the Hayes sisters (named in James Hayes Will).

At this point I am breaking off this postscript and starting a separate document. It will discuss the profile for Gates-1970 and Gates-4366 titled . “Which Samuel Gates married Rachel Hayes on April 1, 1734?”. I have made other minor edits in the body below for clarification.

White, L. Cook. (1994). The Barbour collection of Connecticut town vital records. Baltimore, Md.: Genealogical Pub. Co.]

(2)

Which Samuel Gates married Rachel Hayes on April 1, 1734?

authored August 23, 2018

This story becomes complicated because we have so many Gates with the first name of “Samuel” in Connecticut in the 1600's and 1700's. The profile for Samuel Gates-1970 needs to be edited with changes to birth place, birth date and death date. Secondarily a new Gates line in East Haddam can be created with deleted details and appropriate ancestors (starting with Gates-1210). Third the profile Gates-4366 which I created can be deleted. There are many details to the descendants of Samuel Gates-170 and Mary (Richards-2135) Fairbanks Truesdell Gates that can then be added.

My approach may be too simplistic for WikiTree but I will need advice on the best approach.

I created Gates-4366 because he did not appear in the “Search for a Person” list. I found Gates-1970 when I went to add Rachel Hayes as his spouse. Conundrum. I looked at the profiles and saw that most sources for Gates-1970 were IGI. I decided to walk it backwards with FamilySearch.org to see what could be discovered. Gates-1969 on the way created a little bit more confusion and it was multiple-pass to get to this point.

I noted that Samuel Gates-1970 was eight years younger than Rachel; an improbable marriage or was the birthdate in error. By going to the Barbour Collection for East Haddam it seemed that Samuel Gates-1970 was real but just in the wrong locality, the wrong age and Rachel had been consistently located in Ridgefield by virtue of her children with Samuel.

Fortunately, another genealogist had been doing some independent work on Samuel Gates-1970 (also known as Captain) and had him married but childless (m. Anne Fuller) and descended from another Samuel Gates (b.1681 d.1737 also known as Sergeant) (m. Esther Hungerford) who was descended from George Gates and Sarah (Olmsted). This all fell out as I followed sources to FindAGrave.com via Familyseach.org

Sergeant Samuel Gates father of Captain Samuel Gates in FindAGrave.com

Be certain to click the “Read More”.

WikiTree entry Gates-1210 is our probable Sergeant Samuel Gates and has no assigned children. The FindAGrave.com has all the details.

Samuel Gates and Esther (Hungerford) in WikiTree

I assume this is all credible and reasonable sourcing.

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1 Answer

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Best answer
I'm going to admit to being confused by what you were asking. So I laid it out below from a good source, then compared to wikitree. What it looks like is Davids father Samuel has the wrong birth information and death year. He has the right parents. Profile Gates-1970 says b. Haddam in 1715, but everyone says he was b. 1710 ish in Pomfret. There was a Samuel Gates b. 1715 in East Haddam. He was the son of a different Samuel. The easiest thing to do would be to merge your Samuel (1710-1793) with Samuel (1715-1798 (typo)). I've added the correct death information to the bio on the original Samuel and written a comment. Go ahead and propose the merge. Gates-4366 and Gates-1970

Stephen Gates and Some of His Descendants NeHGR 121 (1966)

p. 252 David Gates b. Jun 1753 Ridgefield; d. Hinesburg VT 19 Jun 1793 m. Ridgefield 22 Dec 1774 Jerusha Whitney (d. VT 1840) He was son of:

p. 251 Samuel Gates b. perhaps in Conn in 1710 died in Ridgefield 30 Sep 1798 ae 84; m. Ridgefield 1 April 1734 Rachel Hayes (perhaps d/o James and Mary (Allen) Hayes of Norwalk. Samuel son of:

v. 120 p. 261 Samuel (Simon, Stephen) b. Cambridge 11 Aug 1685; m. (1) Woodtock 12 Feb 1709/10 Mary (Richards) (Fairbanks) Truesdale. Samuel was living in Pomfret when he married and later moved to Ridgefield.
by Anne B G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
selected by Cheryl Skordahl
Just a newbie trying to follow how y'all piece together these older profiles  - but if Samuel b1710 is a different person than Samuel b1715, why would you merge?
Normally I might not, however, this is a case of mistaken dates, not mistaken identity. He has the right parents and wife etc. It is only that someone mis-stated the death as 1798 instead of 1793 and therefore had the birth off by four years. I'd have to disconnect everyone from b. 1715 then reconnect b. 1710 to all those people. Then poor 1715 might be sitting unconnected for years before someone took pity on him and connected him to his real family. Much easier to merge the two, correcting the old mistaken dates.
If they (-1970 and -4366) are not different people why are they born in different places, East Haddam vs Pomfret CT.  I looked at the Torrey article a long time ago and have forgotten the details.  If I have a chance today I will check the Barbour Collection for Gates in East Haddam and review the 1966 Torrey article.

Thanks for the help,

Bill
There as a Samuel, son of Samuel, born in East Haddam, CT in 1715. Found that. Yes, Barbour.

Do we know for certain that there was a separate Samuel Gates born in Pomfret (45-some miles away)?
This appears to be a transcription of Pomfret births from Barbour:

http://www.ctgenweb.org/county/cowindham/records/barbour/barbourpomfretg.htm

A Samuel and Mary are baptizing children there between 1714 and 1722, but I see no child Samuel born there.
Since I don't seem to be able to make my point that the incorrect dates and birth place, are on the right person and the dates should be changed not the relationships Go ahead disconnect him and insert the Samuel with the right dates.
Let Keith know what you're doing
Keith hasn't been on wikitree for many months. Last December.  But I did reach out to him and ask that he come on over.
Thanks Anne - makes sense. Just trying to learn as much as I can :)
I re-read your post Anne.  Merging does seem appropriate if the Pomfret birth location is wrong.  It doesn't look like there was a Pomfret-born Samuel Gates. William, do you have a better source for a separate Pomfret-born Samuel?
Being new to WikiTree I must admit to being confused about what is being proposed in the first paragraph of the answer.  My digging into records of East Haddam persuades me we have two different Samuels so is a merge appropriate?  I have tried to lay out the data from East Haddam and at least a three generation family in that place.  The second Samuel (-4366) identified by Torrey (NEGHR 1966) as probably born in Pomfret (but not enumerated) is generationally descended from Stephen Gates and Anne (Neave) Gates.  It may not matter where he was born but he is not the Samuel Gates from East Haddam.  When Samuel died in 1793 , Jonathan and Samuel Gates were assigned as administrators of his estate.  Samuel Gates of East Haddam (-1970) died in 1788.

What should I propose if the data is acceptable that we have two different families?  I have made proposals before and stated what I think should be done.

I also found an online transcribed list of Barbour for East Haddam, although I originally consulted the Volume Set:

http://dunhamwilcox.net/barbour/ehaddam_barbour_main.htm

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