Two James Lively's where only one should be.

Question

I have a problem with two James Lively's linked as the sons of [[Lively-579|Turner Lively, Sr.]]. [[Lively-889|James Lively]] (1837 - 1869) FaG#7876882] and James J. Lively (1843 - 1917)[FaG#174636364]

1.) I  have [[Lively-889|James Lively]] listed in the 1850 Census records with the [[Lively-579|Turner Lively, Sr.]] Family, but with only one Child named James, born about 1836. And in the 1860 Census in his own household and married to a Maria and a daughter named Mary E.. I have a MArriage of James Lively and Margaret Eliz. Sudder, in 1866 in Illinois. He died in 1869 in Illinois.

2.) The FindAGrave Memorial for James Lively agrees with the above and specifies that he was born January 10, 1837, in Illinois, to Turner and Nancy (Atkins/Adkins) Lively, in Lively Prairie, Randolph County, IL. Birth date from the "Lively's of America" book.

3.) I have a James J. Lively in the 1870, 1880, and 1900, Federal Censuses i Minnesota., plus the 1875, 1885, 1895, and 1905, Mennesota State Censuses. In the 1870, 1875, and 1880, censuses, he listed as born  in Illinois, in 1834/35, 1837, and 1837, respectively, and with a wife named Maria and (Eldest) daughter named Mary E.. In the 1885 Census, he is listed born in 1837 in Illinois, with no wife. The 1895 Census does not list anyone else in the household. The 1900 census has him living with his son-in-Law and daughter, again in Minnisota.

4.) The FindAGrave Memorial for John J. Lively lists him born 10 Jan 1843 (rather than 1837) in Sparta, Randolph County, Illinois, and survived by two brothers, Martin and William Lively of St. Louis, Mo.; one sister, Mrs. Margaret Durham, Sparta, Ill., all children of Turner Lively.

5.) I can find no earlier listings for John J. Lively.

So, they cannot be the same person, yet only one is the son of Turner Lively per the Census records.

1850 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M8P1-D13

1860 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXHD-VT8

Marriage: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KF2K-VFY

Illinois Soldier Burial Places: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVY9-M87V

Find A Grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/127118651/james-lively

1870 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDHC-F2C

1875 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MKNP-LLG

1880 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZ9V-2C6

1885 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQXL-H42

1895 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ6K-9ZX

1900 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M938-QY7

1905 Census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SPSB-Z46

Veterans Administration Pension Payment: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJDQ-S8SD

Any suggestions?

Comments

Hmmm.  Minnesota James's parents were born in South Carolina and Kentucky, just like Turner and Nancy.  He even had the same rank as the man buried in Illinois.  It all fits pretty well, except for that inconvenient Illinois soldier burial, and Minnesota James being married to a Maria rather than a Margaret.   Middle name could have been John, hence John J.  The Minnesota FaG could be for the wrong person, but that pension record is convincing.

1905 Minneapolis James, occupation Capitalist, had parents born in England.  That could be someone having fun with the Census taker.

Is it possible there were two cousins named James?  Maybe one married Margaret in 1866 and died in 1869, and the other married Maria and moved to Minnesota?  Have you researched the wives and children yet?  That's where I would go next to make or break the connections.

FaG #127118651 is a completely different person.  James buried in Randolph County:

Find A Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 17 August 2018), memorial page for James Lively (10 Jan 1837–26 Nov 1869), Find A Grave Memorial no. 7876882, citing Baldwin Cemetery, Baldwin, Randolph County, Illinois, USA ; Maintained by Amanda Trill (contributor 47012678) .

Good luck!

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They were both married to a Maria. The marriage to Margaret came later, if it's the right James.

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That sounds backwards.  James and Margaret married in 1866, by the record you provided.  James and Maria lived in Minnesota from 1870 on, by the records you provided.

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The marriage to Margaret has no birth dates or parents listed, so I can't be sure it's the right James. There are other James Lively's running around during that period. Nor have I been able to find any definitive info on Maria after 1860.

.

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Margaret Elizabeth, wife of James, died in 1867 and is buried in the same cemetery as the James who died in 1869:

Find A Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 17 August 2018), memorial page for Margaret Elizabeth Lively (12 Aug 1846–20 Sep 1867), Find A Grave Memorial no. 7876886, citing Baldwin Cemetery, Baldwin, Randolph County, Illinois, USA ; Maintained by Find A Grave (contributor 8) .

It looks like her inscription could even be on a different side of the same monument.

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Thank you. Bur-t that still leaves the most important problem. The obituary of James J. Lively,  that lived in Minnesota, says he was survived by two brothers, Martin and William Lively of St. Louis, Mo.; one sister, Mrs. Margaret Durham, Sparta, Ill., all children of [[Lively-579|Turner Lively, Sr.]], father of the John Lively that died in 1869.

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Who is John?  The Minneapolis obit at FaG (your point #4) is for James J Lively.  Wife Maria per various Census records.

Find A Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 17 August 2018), memorial page for James J. Lively (10 Jan 1843–23 Sep 1917), Find A Grave Memorial no. 174636364, citing Crystal Lake Cemetery, Minneapolis, Hennepin County, Minnesota, USA ; Maintained by leslie (contributor 47513444) .

"Minnesota Death Index, 1908-2002," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V4WW-2MR : 4 December 2014), James J. Lively, 23 Sep 1917; from "Minnesota Death Index, 1908-2002," database, Ancestry (http://www.ancestry.com : 2001); citing Hennepin, Minnesota, record 226324, certificate number 020229, Minnesota Department of Health, Minneapolis.

"Minnesota Deaths and Burials, 1835-1990," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FDSV-8DQ : 10 March 2018), James J. Lively, 23 Sep 1917; citing Minneapolis, Hennepin, Minnesota, reference 20229; FHL microfilm 2,138,953.  (Father Couner [sic] Lively, Mother Nancy Atkins.)

I thought you agreed with Deb's assessment that Margaret's husband James who died in 1869 was not Turner's son?

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I apologize for the John. That was an error on my part, it is James.

That Minnesota Deaths and Burials, 1835-1990 is interesting, as Courner looks like a misspelling of Turner Lively, who's second wife was Nancy Jane Adkins/Atkins, the parents of the James Lively that died in 1869.

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What source says the James who died in 1869 was Turner and Nancy's son?  As you said in your question, only one can be Turner's son, and that's the one who died in Minneapolis.  The linked profile clearly has his death wrong, and you have a ton of sources to support it. 

Parentage of the James who died in 1869 is much less clear.  Here's the good news:  He stayed in Randolph County, where he rated a really nice monument.  Maybe there was a local obit.  Randolph County has a pretty good genealogical society, which I visited a couple of years ago.  They would surely help you out. 

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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/127118651/james-lively

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I don't understand your link?  That James died before either of the others was born.  It looks like he was Turner and William's brother, if we can believe FaG.

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=== Family ===
: Father: [[Lively-579|Turner Lively, Sr.]]
: Mother: [[Adkins-4521|Nancy Jane Adkins]]
: Child: [[Lively-887|Mary (Lively) Lemon]]
: Child: [[Lively-1076|Sarah (Lively) Myerott]]
: Child: Samuel Lively (abt 1832 IL-____)
: Child: [[Lively-888|Joseph Lively]]
: Child: Cornelius Lively (1834 IL-____)
: Child: [[Lively-889|James Lively]]
: Child: [[Lively-890|Turner Lively Jr.]]
: Child: [[Lively-891|Nancy Lively]]
: Child: [[Lively-580|William Turner Lively]]
: Child: [[Livley-2|Margaret Ellen (Livley) Durham]]
: Child: [[Lively-116|Martin Luther Lively]]
: Child: [[Lively-892|Reuben Lively]]
: Marriage:
:: Date: 26 Jan 1829
:: Place: Randolph Co., Illinois

=== Marriage ===
: Husband: [[Lively-889|James Lively]]
: Wife: Maria E. James (Abt 1831 IL-____)
: Child: Mary E. Lively (1859 IL-____)
: Child: Matthew T. Lively (1860 IL-1864 IL)
: Marriage:
:: Date: 18 Feb 1858
:: Place: Washington Co., Illinois

=== Family ===
: Father: Turner Lively
: Mother: Nancy
: Child: Jams J. Lively
: Child: Martin Live\y
: Child: William Lively
: Child: Margaret (Lively) Durham
: Marriage:
:: Date: Unknown
:: Place: Unknown

=== Marriage ===
: Husband: James J. Lively (abt 1835/8/43 IL-1917 MN)
: Wife: Maria Lively (abt 1831/7 IL-bef 1885)
: Child: Mary Lively (abt 1859 IL-____)
: Child: Sarah A. Lively (abt 1861/2 IL-____)
: Child: Martha J. Lively (abt 1867 IL-____)
: Child: Harriette Emma Lively (abt 1869 IL-____)
: Marriage:
:: Date: Before 1859
:: Place: Illinois

Answer 1

I believe this is the James Lively who died in 1869 and married Margaret. He is the son of Turner's brother William.

James Lively

United States Census, 1850

Name	James Lively
Event Type	Census
Event Year	1850
Event Place	Randolph county, Randolph, Illinois, United States
Gender	Male
Age	16
Race	White
Birth Year (Estimated)	1834
Birthplace	Illinois
House Number	428

Household	Role	Sex	Age	Birthplace
William Lively		M	49	South Carolina
Cynthia Lively		F	48	Georgia
Amos B Lively		M	21	Illinois
James Lively		M	16	Illinois
Newton Lively		M	14	Illinois
Reuben Lively		M	12	Illinois
Cynthia Lively		F	10	Illinois
Elizabeth Lively		F	7	Illinois
Matthew Lively		M	5	Illinois
Henry T Lively		M	1	Illinois

Citing this Record

"United States Census, 1850," database with images, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M8P1-DBV : 12 April 2016), James Lively in household of William Lively, Randolph county, Randolph, Illinois, United States; citing family 432, NARA microfilm publication M432 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).

View the original document. The original may contain more information than was indexed.

United States Census, 1850

Comments

I agree that that is probably the one that died in 1869.